Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
The Big Question For Full Tilt's U.S. Players: Will They Get Their Poker Winnings Back? The Big Question For Full Tilt's U.S. Players: Will They Get Their Poker Winnings Back?

12-12-2012 , 02:03 PM
I'm not going round in circles. The reasons I've given I think are spot on and I could care less what you think. If you defend trollish ideas, then I will treat you like a troll.
12-12-2012 , 02:20 PM
Cool. When you post things that are demonstrably wrong, I'll point out they are wrong. Im sorry reality angers you.
12-12-2012 , 02:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatty
We're trying to shut up trolls with this "deposits" and "balances" argument and then you come behind us and say "well, uh, technically that's not a reason blah blah blah". I'm not sure what your argument is anymore. If you want to engage in this microlevel speculation, that's the response you're going to get back.
Do you want to know the easiest way to shut up a troll?
12-12-2012 , 02:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatty;
it was by design that the deal was structured so that there would be more than enough money to pay everyone back just like they have made sure everyone can be paid back full balances in the 3 other cases related to Black Friday - Stars US players, Stars ROW players, and Full Tilt ROW players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatty
Stars could not pay us back until they reached that agreement. And they DID reach that agreement.
In your previous post you seem to be asserting that the first deal with the DOJ was designed to ensure PokerStars had enough funds to pay back everybody. (Yes/No?)

If that's your belief, you should actually read the agreement. They were only given PERMISSION to pay us back. It was not REQUIRED. At that time the DOJ did not give a rats ass if PS, FTP, or Cereus had enough $$ to pay their players; and did absolutely NOTHING to ensure PS had the funds to do so.
12-12-2012 , 03:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyrulesall
How has the ppa sat down with the doj and not asked the question if they are going to pay balances or deposits?
IMO, why even suggest that's a legitimate question? Being paid deposits is obvious nonsense, tantamount to players not actually being paid back. I don't know why people are even talking about it. You don't sit down and have a big discussion that they should pay in US dollars rather than Mars credit notes.
12-12-2012 , 03:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatty
Before you start typing more nonsense on your keyboard, don't forget that the DOJ has the money. Yes, if the money was stolen, not insured, and gone forever then maybe you'd have a point. But, the DOJ has the money. And in my opinion, it's not a coincidence that the the DOJ has the money, rather, it was by design that the deal was structured so that there would be more than enough money to pay everyone back just like they have made sure everyone can be paid back full balances in the 3 other cases related to Black Friday - Stars US players, Stars ROW players, and Full Tilt ROW players.
Stars US players cases, Stars ROW players, FT ROW players are VERY different from FT US players. The DOJ has no interest in protecting ROW players, only US players.

US players from Stars were never defrauded or victimized. That is why US stars players received their balances.

Do you believe the DOJ stepped in and filed charges and shut down FT to make sure players would receive their winnings once they came to the conclusion that it was fraudulent?
12-12-2012 , 03:36 PM
Something about FTP stealing IronMan medals from US players?

Just got a PM about it, anyone else know something about this?
12-12-2012 , 03:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by duh
In your previous post you seem to be asserting that the first deal with the DOJ was designed to ensure PokerStars had enough funds to pay back everybody. (Yes/No?)

If that's your belief, you should actually read the agreement. They were only given PERMISSION to pay us back. It was not REQUIRED. At that time the DOJ did not give a rats ass if PS, FTP, or Cereus had enough $$ to pay their players; and did absolutely NOTHING to ensure PS had the funds to do so.
I am saying that the DOJ has on 3 unique cases made deals that led to players getting paid their full account balances and there is no reason to think based on precedent, logic, and common sense that they would suddenly do an about face with this 4th, last case that specifically involves victims they represent.

We shall see what happens. Place your bets now based on whatever screwed up line of thinking any of you want. Again, I could care less.
12-12-2012 , 04:02 PM
I dont know how this works, and it is a silly question, but since the DOJ agreed to pay US players in full; could PokerStars sue the DOJ for damaging PokerStars's name?
This is why I think the DOJ will pay.
12-12-2012 , 04:05 PM
Oh dear, the balance/deposit debate is back, and so am I.


Cliffs first for those with short attention spans:
  • The amount of money available for remission payments does not determine the basis for calculating remission. It is a possibility that the amount indicates the DoJ's intention to pay bassed on balances.
  • Stars' payments to players and remission payments are two different things. Don't draw conclusions about remission from Stars' payments.
  • Stars' payments to players do not set a precedent that will affect remissions.
  • Remission is paid on the amount lost due to an offence.
  • Balance owed is not necessarily the same as the amount lost due to an offence - it could be lower or higher.
  • IMO, losing players should get remission based on net deposits.
  • IMO, winning players should get remission based on balances, but might only get deposits.
Let's try to get three things things clear.
  1. The fact that the settlements between the DoJ and FTP and Stars provided more than enough money to pay US players' balances, but not enough to pay US players' deposits does not mean that remission must be based on balances. Remission could be paid on the basis of deposits, on a pro rata basis. However the amount paid in the settlement might be an indication that the DoJ intends to pay remission based on balances.
  2. Remission payments and the payments made by Stars to players are two different sorts of things. You cannot draw meaningful parallels between them. The payments made by Stars are repayments of debts owing to players, made by a party which committed no offences against those players. What the players were owed (and what FTP's US players are still owed) is their balances. Hence when Stars was paying players, they paid what was owed - the balances. The remission payments are payments of compensation by the government to victims of offences based on the amount lost due to the offences, not necessarily the outstanding balances.
  3. Payments to Stars' players and to FTP's ROW players are not precedents for how remisson will be handled, for two separate reasons. Firstly, the payments by Stars to players were voluntary acts of a private company, not a result of a court ruling on a point of law related to how much the players should rightfully receive, and only the latter would give rise to a precedent. Secondly, since the payments made by Stars are not remission payments, they have no precedential impact on remission payments.
What the DoJ will be paying is remission. The question before us is "How will those remission payments be calculated?". Remission is not a repayment of debt. It is compensation for losses due to a offence. If FTP had not committed any offences, there would be no possiblity of remission. Being unable to pay debts is not in itself a crime. If FTP's only misstep had been to pay an unexpectedly high lobster bill that left them bankrupt, there would be no remission paments. Players would still be owed money, but they woudn't be getting "paid back" by anybody.

The DoJ isn't in the business of settling third party debts. However they will sometimes compensate the victims of crime. So the question that determines how much remission will be paid is not "How much are players owed?", it is "How much did players lose due to the offence?". The answer to the second question may or may not be the same as the answer to the first question. This second question is not the same thing as "After the crime and subsequent enforcement activities, how much of what they were owed did the players fail to recover?"

The offence in question is wire fraud. Generally wire fraud occurs when a perpetrator commits fraud by means of electronic cummunication. Fraud generally consists of obtaining something of value by means of false inducement. So the question of how much to pay in remission would seem to be "How much money were players falsely induced to give FTP?". On the face of it, that would seem to be the amount players deposited while relying on FTP's false statements about the safety, availability, and segregation of funds. (The charges relate to false statements made as early as 2008.) It would also include amounts that players already had in their balances when the false statements were originally made and amounts which players kept on the site as a result of those false statements.

Consider the hypothetical case of Fred. Two days before BF, he makes his first and only deposit, in the amount of $1000. He never actually gets around to playing. How much was he fraudulently induced to give to FTP? Of how much did FTP defraud him? The answer to both questions is "$1000". When did the fraud against Fred take place? It occurred when he deposited the $1000. We can probably all agree that Fred's remission payment should be $1000.

Now consider the case of Joe, who makes the same deposit at the same time. If we ask the same questions - the amount of fraud and when it took place - with respect to Joe's status as of noon on the day before BF, the answers are the same as for Fred: "$1000", and "two days before BF". Now imagine that a few minutes before the site is shut down on BF, Joe plays NLH and loses $600. If one calculates Joe's remission payment based on BF balance, then his payment is only $400. Yet on the previous day FTP had defrauded Joe of $1000. How does Joe playing poker the next day change the nature and value of the crime committed against him the previous day? Sure it changes the balance owing, but how does it change the amount he lost due to fraud? How and why is his poker loss allowed to reduce the crime committed against him? Remission is payment of compensation for the amount lost due to an offence, not for the net amount lost due to an offence and other factors.

Now consider the case of Bloggs, who makes his one and only deposit of $1000 at the same time as Fred and Joe. He plays heads up against Joe and wins $500 ($100 was paid in rake). When FTP is shut down, Bloggs is owed $1500, but he doesn't get it. Bloggs loses $1500. But in what sense does Bloggs lose the $500 part of it due to the offence? There was no practical way for Bloggs to have withdrawn it, so he cannot be said to have been falsely induced to keep the $500 on the site. He lost the $500 in winnings as well as the $1000 deposit, but he only lost $1000 due to the offence. (This is not to argue that winnings in general should not be part of the compensation calculation. Any winnings that were won early enough that there was a real chance to withdraw them, but which were not withdrawn, - that is to say, virtually all winnings - could be said to have been kept on the site due to false inducements, and were therefore losses due to the fraud.)

I have yet to see a convincing argument as to why losing players should not be compensated based on deposits. The argument that what they lost due to the fraud is the amount they were owed but did not collect does not wash. The amount lost to fraud could be more or less than the amount owed. What they lost due to the fraud, is the amount they were falsely induced to give to FTP. They were defrauded when they made their deposits. FTP's susbsequent role in hosting poker games does not reduce their crime, not does it reduce the loss suffered by the depositor. The fact that what the losing players were owed by FTP is less than the amount of which they were defrauded does not, or should not, change the operation of remission.

As for winners, I think there are two ways the DoJ could go. If they are prepared to recognize the results of the poker games operated by FTP, then winners were defrauded of both their deposits and their winnings, so remission of winners should be based on balances. OTOH the DoJ might conclude that even though the games themselves were not rigged, their being a part of a fraudulent schemes invalidates the results, so the unrealized winnings were not real, and therefore not lost. In this case, winning players would be compensated based on net deposits.
12-12-2012 , 04:15 PM
Thanks, DTM you explain it better than I can.
12-12-2012 , 04:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Go Get It
Something about FTP stealing IronMan medals from US players?

Just got a PM about it, anyone else know something about this?
I got the same PM. I think your post at the top of this page describes the situation pretty well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Go Get It
Really seems clear that FTP, while completely inactive for over a year, sat around and did nothing as a bunch of US players never had their accounts corrected for withdraws or Ironman medals...
12-12-2012 , 04:56 PM
I hate to say it, but it feels like the puzzle pieces are starting to look like they're going to fit into a remission based on fraud/deposits that DON'T recognize winnings. DTMs assertion that there isn't a good case for losing depositing playes not being entitled to getting their deposits back is what I thought as well.

Not sure how far back the fraud and resulting deposits would go, but there seems a decent chance that account balances will be honored up to a certain point...

But ya, starting to really think its looking bleak for balances, or at least those that "matured" after the shortfall. Maybe it would've been different were it not for phantom deposits, but I think those help destroy the possibility of the DOJ recognizing "wins" and "losses" as legitimate.

Also, it seems obvious that if it's based on deposits, it will take longer, and despite what people are saying, it may work out to be a bigger $ win for the DOJ because the vast majority of losing players who lost a few hundred bucks won't bother applying, nor will winners whose account balances won't be honored.

Stars of course has nothing to do with FT because their coffers were always documented to have no shortfall pertaining to player balances.

Sigh...
12-12-2012 , 05:25 PM
Nope, you guys are wrong, the DOJ will remit full balances. Before the DOJ stepped in, Full Tilt was paying cash-outs regularly. Then the DOJ steps in, seizes all their assets, but doesn't reimburse US players their balances? Who is the thief in that scenario? The DOJ has to pay out balances or they are the thief--the legal mumbo jumbo only matters so much.
12-12-2012 , 05:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatty
Almost as old as the "deposit versus balance" debate is the "ponzi scheme" debate. According to wiki, "A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to its investors from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation."

Full Tilt and poker are not investments. The reason there was not enough money to pay us was because of piss poor management or outright theft or both - neither of those qualify it as a ponzi scheme.

And, for the sake of argument, even if they did think it was a ponzi scheme, that doesn't mean squat as far as giving back original deposits versus current balances. It also doesn't mean squat as far as paying back full balances. The reason that people don't get all their money back in actual ponzi schemes is because there is no money to give back. In this case, all the money is there.
You are wrong. It was a Ponzi scheme and you should not rely on Wikipedia for the totality of your education.

By the way the owners of FTP certainly felt you were investing as they did not segregate funds nor treat them as deposits. At this point anyone still arguing it was not a Ponzi scheme is being massively ignorant.

They got people to invest via deposits and promised returns based on how well you played a pretend game. They then used the money of new investors / depositors to pay off the people who wanted their money back.

That is a Ponzi scheme. Let me reiterate again that is a Ponzi scheme.
12-12-2012 , 05:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zzzed
Nope, you guys are wrong, the DOJ will remit full balances. Before the DOJ stepped in, Full Tilt was paying cash-outs regularly. Then the DOJ steps in, seizes all their assets, but doesn't reimburse US players their balances? Who is the thief in that scenario? The DOJ has to pay out balances or they are the thief--the legal mumbo jumbo only matters so much.
The DOJ dont have to give anymoney back if they think all of this FTP was illegal ,like i said in the past how many drug dealers recieve any of the money they got caught with or things they siezed of the things they think was bought with drug money last thing i heard howard might lose some houses and money in this FTP operation? quote= the PPA was not created for to get players money back, just to get so players could play online again << RESEARCH
12-12-2012 , 05:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by markksman
You are wrong. It was a Ponzi scheme and you should not rely on Wikipedia for the totality of your education.

By the way the owners of FTP certainly felt you were investing as they did not segregate funds nor treat them as deposits. At this point anyone still arguing it was not a Ponzi scheme is being massively ignorant.

They got people to invest via deposits and promised returns based on how well you played a pretend game. They then used the money of new investors / depositors to pay off the people who wanted their money back.

That is a Ponzi scheme. Let me reiterate again that is a Ponzi scheme.
You could reiterate it a 3rd time and it would not make it any more true. Full Tilt poker was not a fraudulent investment scheme. It was a poker site run by greedy and/or incompetent people. Poker players actually DID deposit and withdraw money from the site. Some people made a living playing on it.

And, as I said before, I don't care if you, the DOJ, or Fozzie Bear calls it a ponzi scheme or not. ROW players got their money. DOJ has our money. I would expect the DOJ to exercise common sense and justice and give all US players their current balances.
12-12-2012 , 06:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALawPoker
IMO, why even suggest that's a legitimate question? Being paid deposits is obvious nonsense, tantamount to players not actually being paid back. I don't know why people are even talking about it. You don't sit down and have a big discussion that they should pay in US dollars rather than Mars credit notes.
So the DOJ is paying us in Mars credit notes? **** I knew they were going to get over on us.
12-12-2012 , 06:09 PM
If DOJ wants to pay out deposits, let em... Americans deposited billions..
12-12-2012 , 06:12 PM
Wouldn't row players that deposited have some claim if they based it on deposits. Is remission only for us citizens?
12-12-2012 , 06:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigsid
The DOJ dont have to give anymoney back if they think all of this FTP was illegal ,like i said in the past how many drug dealers recieve any of the money they got caught with or things they siezed of the things they think was bought with drug money last thing i heard howard might lose some houses and money in this FTP operation? quote= the PPA was not created for to get players money back, just to get so players could play online again << RESEARCH
Players didn't do anything illegal; they were victims, so the analogy to drug dealers (who did do something illegal), doesn't hold.
12-12-2012 , 06:20 PM
DTM - Post of the year.

The whole entire thing was a fraud.

If you were a winner or a loser, you were a victim. A player who lost $100,000 on FullTilt will have a great case that they were victimized.

It would not surprise me in the least if the DoJ used deposits as the only measure and paid out that via a % of the money they have on hand minus some huge transaction cost.

And I love hearing about what is right and wrong like that really matters. As we all know, sometimes it is just the side that has the better lawyer (or lobbying group) that wins the case/makes the law.
12-12-2012 , 06:24 PM
The main reason this comes up is because losing players are desperate for any chance to recoup losses. The other reason is that misery loves company so it brings out the trolls. There are actually people rooting we don't get our money. But, I agree it should all be a non issue.
12-12-2012 , 06:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by duh
If DOJ wants to pay out deposits, let em... Americans deposited billions..
I think the concern of people here is that:

(1) They could just pay out "deposits" of winning players, as opposed to winnings, and then to losing players, just say "F.U. -- you lost."

or

(2) They could pay out everyone's initial deposit back, but compensate for the insufficient funds by paying everyone a prorated amount so that the remission funds cover it.

Not saying I agree with either of those two things; I am still firmly in the "they will pay account balances" side of the argument. But, just saying your original post contains something that doesn't address those concerns (they won't pay deposits, because it would cost too much).
12-12-2012 , 07:03 PM
There is, imo, about a 0% chance we get paid based on deposits.

      
m