Lots of Wentworth ITT

LOL!!!!!

It's my money, and I need it now!

I honestly think they will be paying back balances less phantom deposits, but I still see a possibility of deposits. Keep in mind if they pay back deposits there would be a very large percentage of recreational players who deposited <$1,000 that have no idea this is even happening, thus they would never claim their refund which would offset the rake/loss to ROW/previous cashouts.

It's not like they would just refund all deposits, they would refund deposits less cashouts less phantom deposits so I think 150MM would go alot further than people think.


Also, they could simply refund deposits until the 150MM is gone (so go back 18 months or 2 years or however long it lasts).


The key is if the DOJ considers the if the balances were won illegally or not - if they deem that they were won illegally they would lean more towards deposits, if they deem the customers did no wrong and it was the sites/processors, then it would be balances.


Balances would just be so simple and they have the money to cover it and just do it...

Ewe*

D is the most important point IMO. Part of the incentive for this whole aggressive prosecution of Full Tilt and PokerStars was to bulldoze the path for lobbyist-approved casino-owned poker sites in the future (i.e., get rid of offshore, quasi-untaxable competition). It wouldn't make sense for them to stiff players and have a pissed-off poker-playing US base when they finally get that going here in the US.

Playing poker online for real money never was, and is not now, illegal in the US. So there is no valid legal argument to support the allegation that "balances were won illegally".

Only moving money between banks and payment processors was made illegal, not customers playing poker, and not customers depositing or withdrawing money from the site.

If they were going to pay us our money back, it's not that hard to say... send us your info and we'll look into your account and if everything is legit, your payed. Seems like they will at least have something up their sleeve if they need time to figure out how to release an announcement.

not true. at all.

It is fundamental to the DoJ"s position that it was illegal for FTP to offer poker to (certain?) US players. While playing in it wasn't illegal, the game itself was illegal. If the game was illegal, can its results legally affect the transfer of debt obligations beteeen players?

However, even if balances were won legally, the AFMLS doesn't pay remission to cover unpaid unsecured debts. It pays remission to cover what victims lost to a crime. What was lost in the crime of wire fraud that was committed against players was whatever they were induced to deposit or to keep on the site instead of withdrawing it. That is a mix of balances at a certain date, plus net deposits thereafter. IDK what that date is, but it relates to the beginning of fraudulent activity, which may be as early as July 2008.

Because it might be difficult to pinpoint a specific date after which it was deposits that were lost to the crime, and because most players would probably regard what they had lost to be their balances as adjusted by the results of play, the AFMLS may use the wide discretion available to it to pay remission of balances as of BF or June 29th (should be the same for most US players). Unless this totally exhausts the funds available for remission payments, this approach will result in less money being paid out than one which pays remission based on net deposits since the start of the fraud plus balances as at the start of the fraud. The latter would have to be a cents on the dollar payment, since the total amount will undoubtedly exceed the funds available.

Based on what?

So, I know this process is going through with all the points and medals and stuff, but am I the only one who is wondering why they can't just pay out balances and we will worry about the other stuff too? I would like to get compensated for my points and all that, but I view that as an extra incentive that FTP was providing from money they didn't even have. The balance which for me is mostly from the games, was my money that I won and not some bonus program that a shady site was running. I can't remember what points were worth in the store, but it's not worth it for me to get my balance sooner.

Although I tend to agree with you there is a strong argument against that...simply put, the money was illegally deposited, thus everything that happened after the deposits doesn't matter. To 'make people whole' from the 'fraud' the DOJ may say that all deposits go back to the depositors (until the 150M is exhausted).


I hope you're right (although I have no money in FTP) because it's only fair that balances are paid, but I think there is a bigger argument for deposits making sense to the DOJ that people think.


In all likelihood balances will be paid and all will be well (hopefully regulation follows suite).

I would argue that not all money was illegally deposited via your reasoning. There are accounts like mine with a significant balance that had not deposited since the UIGEA went into affect in 2006.

Running a poker site when the government doesn't want you to isn't "fraud". (People who sell you marijuana aren't being fraudulent.) The fraud is that they gave our money to Erick Lindgren to light on fire, not that they did something illegal.

Ok, so you ignored the point of the argument to point out that I used the incorrect word. They were breaking the law was the point. Pointless post, but thank you for pointing out that I used the wrong word.




Very good point. My guess is that if they went the route of refunding deposits they would not go back that far so it would be irrelevant. That just adds even more reason to just refund balances (as they should). Even if they did choose to go back that far they would then have to decide to pay balances prior to 2006 and deposits after - seems like a huge waste of time and resources...


My only point of the whole thing is that there are valid arguments for the DOJ if they decide to go that route (refunding deposit), unfortunately.

Yes I have been saying this from the beginning. I really hope they just settle this situation with the balances. Points would be a bonus. I think a lot of the people arguing about this are people with little to no cash balance while having a couple million Full tilt points and just trying to get the value for those which I can't blame them but let's just focus on the more valuable cash balances at this time.

To many players FTPs were the more valueble cash balance. The only reasoning to not honor what the points were worth is if the D.O.J. wants to steal them. That imo is not ok.

What color is the sky in your world? It never ceases to amaze me how out of touch with reality some people are.

This is pretty sick to read and I feel for you guys in the states that have money locked up. The most infuriating thing is that the DOJ have been working on this deal for well over a year. Surely they would have a plan in place by now and give a statement as soon as the deal was done to reassure American players who they know have been waiting anxiously and patiently! It's nothing short of a disgrace how they've handled this so far.

I fully expect them to re-pay balances however I feel they will work with your tax guys to make sure they collect every dime their owed. There will be a large amount that won't be claimed for and i guess after a certain time-frame that will just line the DOJ pockets.

Fingers crossed for you guys across the pond; hope there's a conclusion to this asap!

Various state gambling laws, for instance, those of NY.

There could be no UIGEA charges if the sites hadn't violated state gambling laws. IDK if the DoJ is maintaining it was illegal for the sites to offer online poker to all Americans, or just a subset. They tend to try to gloss over that.

I think they will pay out but it will be a very slow process. I also doubt a lot of players will see all that they are owed. A lot of the small balances won't want to go through the process so by the time some money goes uncollected and the claimed money gets heavily taxed the government will come out of this with a nice pay day just as they intended.

The other option is to wait and see what actually happens before straw-manning everything about the procedure and then telling us how awful it is. But, that hasn't been anybody's strong point in these discussions since the deal was announced.

It's funny how many times I read posts like these in the old FTP thread every time someone would say anything that resembled "I think we might get our money back". All of those people have crawled back in their holes, surprisingly. It'll be nice to watch you do the same in a few weeks.

BTW the offer to place a wager based on your statements stands but I am 99% sure you will continue to ignore them.

And what is the DOJ going to do with the 'ftps'? Go to the online store and buy things????
I doubt we will get anything for our points--medals etc etc since this is going through remission and remission re-imburses, money, victims of a crime--fraud/ponzi etc. But, we can hope.

A. The DOJ got their $$$ and are in process of getting their convictions.

The DOJ has all the money right now. Every dollar they give you is one dollar less they have to keep. Getting their convictions has no relation to giving you money.

B. Paying deposits is LOL-ev for doj. More money to pay out. Pissed off Americans right before an election and it defies common sense. No logical explanation could be made in favor of it IMO..

Not if "paying deposits" means the DOJ creates a complicated arcane process where the burden of proof is left to players to prove their deposits and withdrawls, which would be impossible for most people who dont keep all their bank records and paper trail from years ago.

C. DOJ will help IRS collect taxes.

What makes you think the DOJ cares about the IRS?


D. US payouts mean more money for ppl to spend, the economy needs all it can get. + ppl will have money to blow on US poker sites when it's legal

The DOJ could care less about how much money you have to spend or the state of the economy in general, especially when it would do so at it's own expense.

E. They can charge a 25$$ administration fee or more if they want. Thus reducing the 150million. Wasn't it 94.9% of players had less than 100$? So many of them may say **** it.

Most people will say **** it regardless of what petition you are ultimately able to file in any case. Again, they have all the money now, they don't need to play games to figure out how to get it, they have it.

F. They turned down tapie BC 90 day demand on player reimbursement. So obviously player balances are important.

The tapie deal was a farce from day one.

G. I have faith in my fellow Americans to do their job... except choke artists tiger woods.

You are either very young, or very sheltered, either way a lucky boy.

H. BC I see no downside to paying us players.

Other then the fact that every dollar paid out is a dollar the DOJ doesn't get to keep.

Whether or not we ever get paid anything, your projections about the DOJ's deep concern with the spending habits of Americans, your well being, or the political popularity of the government at large are delusional.

No, I was trying to explain why it was a bad argument.

If FTP was dealing hands in an unfair way or something, then I can see "everything that happened after the deposits doesn't matter" making sense. But I don't know why illegality means that.

If breaking the law is an issue, it makes more sense to say the DOJ should seize our money. Paying deposits would be just a totally random response to this situation.