Oh, the irony. Ban HL, don't let him back in the Phil Ivey Room!! haha. what about Ivey and other FT owners?

Considering the consequences, or lack thereof, that have happened to Lederer, Russ Hamilton, and a ton of other poker cheats over the years, I'm starting to think that I'm the sucker for not having cheated or looked for a way to cheat people big.

agree. the idea that people can sign a petition to get someone banned from an establishment for any reason sets a terrible precedent imo.

I'd like to point out that what Howard allegedly did is not all that effectively different from, and several orders of magnitude larger than, someone who merely cheated a few other people out of money at poker.

What's more, while what Howard did is debatable, Russ Hamilton *did* actually cheat a lot of people out of money at poker.

I'm surprised Lederer hasn't been atleast abducted or beaten yet. We are talking about poker players with money that are very angry at this guy. How is he still walking around untouched. Especially with all the shows and movies about how to go about such things without getting caught.

I agree that it is several orders of magnitude larger. I disagree that it is very similar.

The reason for barring known cheaters from a poker room is to protect the integrity of the games, not to punish bad people for being bad. Punishing wrongdoers is not the casino's job.

What Howard is accused of having done is surely "worse" than marking cards or shorting the pot, but that's not the point. As long as there's no reason to think he's a threat to the integrity of the games, and I don't think anyone seriously thinks there is, it's not appropriate for a casino to bar him.

I think barring Russ Hamilton from a poker room makes a lot of sense.

ike's post should be the end of this discussion.

100% agree with Ike. One thing I like about poker rooms is that they are home to all walks of life. People who are rejected from other social groups or settings are free to come play in a casino, as long as they have the money to sit down at the table, and are not a threat to the integrity of the games or the physical safety of the fellow players. That's how it should be and casinos are not in a position to be making ethical judgement calls about who is and is not worthy of their business

Regarding Joe Sebok:

OK, I'll take a crack at this:

The ongoing bankroll issues are a concern to the integrity of the game, imho. As I am sure you are aware Howard provided a lot of liquidity via ftp to the high stakes games. By his own admission he had a $1m slush fund of sorts that was listed as a loan from ftp. Players would frequently trade cash for the games for ftp funds and vice-verse. We can safely presume that Howard is owed money from other players with frozen ftp funds. Chris Ferguson provided $20m+ in loans and share buy backs via his "personal" Pocket Kings account. Both individuals face civil forfeiture of all of their assets. Isn't a game where multiple people have claims on the money won a different game? I would play poker with a bank-robber, but if the bank manager was standing right behind the thief I might be less likely to call. (Yea, I know, a stretch- but serious enough?)

As to whether it is apropriate I guess I would just remind you that all games on ftp from at least Jan '11 forward were not played with integrity. Effectively 100% rake. It does not seem a stretch to me that a rival operator would want to bar from its premisses an operator that spread fraudulent games.

None of this suggests Aria is somehow obliged to ban him, anymore than players are obliged to play there. It does suggest to me, however, that it is probably a good idea for both business and ethical reasons.

+1 000 000, one of the more tilting things about most people these days.

The question is say there was a trial and Lederer was convicted of making poor business decisions or even flat out stealing money from FTP yet somehow he dodges jail and is free to walk around in LV. Why should he be banned from casinos? He didn't cheat at the poker table or tried to hurt the casino financially. What grounds do you have to ban him from the casino? Why does it matter wether someone stole from poker players or say stole from credit card companies? No one would say "ban the thief who stole from credit card companies!!!!". Why is it different? Because we are poker players? Should a convicted bank robber be banned from entering banks? Should someone who did heists on grocery stores be banned from grocery stores? Should a carjacker be banned from car dealerships?

I just don't see why it is relevant that he stole from poker players when we are making these decisions... He hasn't commit any crime while on Aria grounds, or at least none we know of.

when's the last time you had a gun pointed at your face?

:-(

while i agree completely that its not a casino's job to play police, i think the world would be a lot worse place if people had no vigilante spirit whatsoever.

howard lederer isn't just some random bad person. he stole from the people that are playing in these games, and still has the audacity to come in like nothing happened.

lets say you lived in a small town and there was a guy who was put on trial for child molestation. the evidence presented was overwhelming, but the police forgot to read the man his miranda rights and so he got off. so far pretty standard stuff, but now lets say the man just keeps on hanging around the playground of the victims' kids like nothing ever happened. the guy isn't doing anything wrong at the moment, and even if he was it would be the job of the police to take care of it, but most people don't particularly like being tormented by people who have committed crimes against them, and so it will not end well, and i think that's pefectly fine.

Feel free to go to HL and give him hell when you see him at the casino. Nobody is saying that should not happen. I would say something myself if I saw him.

If you ban Howard you have to ban the rest of FT management and owners.

You should also ban the books they have written.

Also we should put together a petition to ban Mason from 2+2 because he disagrees.

Any argument to ban someone should be considered the same as burning books because the content of the book offends you.

if they ban him from aria, the big game just going to move to bellagio or somewhere else lol... its pointless

Passing a petition at 5/10 to ban a player in Ivey's room is pretty funny regardless of players involved.

Normally I appreciate the thought that goes into your posts dealing with controversial topics.

God forbid people in a poker room fight for things they believe in.. I think 'disrupt the operation' is a strong exaggeration for a guy passing around a petition.

If people didn't attempt to change things they do not like, slavery would still be around!

See where a little exaggeration can take you?

I personally don't think a ban from a casino is the way to go about dealing with this issue, but there is no way HL should be allowed to walk around without thinking about the FTP ordeal every day until his case and player balances are completely resolved.

I feel sad when I see Howard walking around... it's a lonely existence.

FYP

How? What does this have to do with the integrity of the games at Aria and how would barring HL help?

I'm not disputing that HL is a bad guy and I completely understand the feelings that it would be just for bad things to happen to him. It makes me sick picturing him playing poker in Vegas like nothing happened and if I were there I would let him know I felt that way.

I just don't think it's reasonable to petition a poker room to ban him. Poker rooms haven't previously had a policy of not allowing scumbags, criminals or fraudsters and I don't think they should start.

What's your point? I don't think casinos should bar Sebok either.

Than Vegas needs to ban all the investment bankers from the Mortgage bailout also. There is still a question if what he did was criminal or not. Heck I am for a ban but than Lindgren should be banned and Booth. And add a bunch more shaddy poker players. I thought everyone thinks Howard sucks at poker should you want him back

"I just don't think it's reasonable to petition a poker room to ban him. Poker rooms haven't previously had a policy of not allowing scumbags, criminals or fraudsters and I don't think they should start."

I agree with what Ike said on principle, however, there must be some weight on the fact that Howard isn't the run of the mill scumbag/thief/cheat in a casino, he single-handedly almost ended the online Poker industry, and all the while, put thousands of players out of a job by stealing their bankrolls.

Just because historically casinos have dealt with dubious individuals doesn't mean they can't make a stand now and set a precedent for the future. I feel his situation is so unique and destructive to the poker community, that a ban should be in order, for everyone's benefit.