LOL @ people defending PA or anyone from Full Tilt for that matter.

Morons.

tap tap tap tap cherokee

tx for the link!

you are correct.....my apologies

+1

FYP

And why is that exactly? It's not like they went 'Joe Sebok' and shilled for a company that was known to be shady like UB. Sure I wish that PA, Dwan etc... wouldn't have remained so hush hush about the FTP situation (despite their NDAs), but I certainly don't see them in the same light as Lederer, Ferguson and Bitar AINEC.

What about the points Noah raised or the questions I raised in the following post?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...9&postcount=98

This just makes Noah look bad. I don't think any reasonable person believed Antonius saying that he "had a lot of money stuck there" or "stands to lose 5 million" equates to "the balance in my account was 5 million." Going around repeating that PA was lying without a full understanding of stakes, loans, etc. is way out of line.

i think most people lending out million in loans out are in a good position to judge their chances of getting paid (including the timeframe and risks involved) and its really inappropriate to challenge that assertion considering the chain of events that led him to give that interview in the first place

when someone's financial details are leaked to the public through no fault of his own (that we know of), and we now know other relevant information was withheld or unavailable its extremely offensive to use that same information to then call him an idiot for loaning out money

that he did disclose as much information as he did means that these accusations could be damaging to him in multiple ways

i think PA has always been a class act and a great representative for poker so its unfortunate to see people taking some cheap shots at the situation

Sounds like it makes PA look bad.

PA get's paid millions to shill for FT to induce players to transfer funds to and play on FT.

FT goes down, locking up (or permanently losing) hundreds of millions in player funds.

PA says "don't blame me, I have millions stuck on FT!", thinking no one can know his account is empty.

Noah produces evidence that PA's account was empty.

PA admits his account is empty, but now says he's owed lots of money by players on FT, an unprovable and hence indisputable story.

Let's be clear that PA had no right to privacy. He was paid enormous sums to shill for FT and attract players to deposit there. FT used those players funds for operational expenses, essentially stealing from players. PA was fronting for a rogue company, and then after the fact led people to believe he had millions in funds tied up in his account when it wasn't true.

If you are going to endorse a site, and take huge sums of money for doing so, you have responsibility to vet their business practices, and when it turns out the business committed fraud against it's customers you also have the responsibility to be clear and honest about your own dealings with them.

If you flunk these tests you have no right to whine if others reveal the true details of your relationship with the fraudulent business.

fo Roland

holy ****..lol his ft balance is 100$, but is owed 2m$+. ****in ridiculous

antonious is a ******....no wonder he was in poker overrated aswell.

Certainly seems like exactly what has gone on here with this situation.



QFT

this is an absurdly high standard to try to apply to someone who isn't even a bonafide employee, and is more of a marketing expense

it would kind of be like asking kobe bryant to audit the lakers

yes poker players should have withheld their endorsements if they knew the prlayers wouldn't be safe, but its a real stretch to try and hold him liable for management decisions he was not involved with and it seems clear that he didn't know about the bad business practices going on

separate from any advertising fees he received, the amount of his own personal funds he plays with or loans is certainly not information the public is entitled to - that is to say, even if you think he is somewhat complicit for not 'vetting the company', he can still be a victim as an ordinary poker player aside from that

moreover, if there is a legitimate case for depriving him of his privacy, it is certainly not one to be made through news leaks and unidentified sources

I didn't say that he's wrong about his chances of getting paid or accuse him of being an idiot for loaning out money. I didn't come anywhere close to doing either of those things. I just pointed out that people's summary of what he said is not an accurate characterisation of what he said.

Re-read my post, I said nothing about holding him liable, no one has claimed he made managerial decisions or had any ownership stake significant enough to give him any authority. I'm only talking about his right to privacy and his obligations in the investigations post-fraud. He was paid huge amounts of money to get players to deposit on FullTilt, he has far more responsibilities and obligations during the investigation than the typical Red Pro on an enhanced rake back deal only.

If you want to compare it to Kobe, a comparable example would be if the Lakers forced all the season ticket holders to pay up front before next season, claiming the new collective bargaining agreement with the players was forcing their costs higher. To help seal the deal, Kobe does meet and greets with the ticket holders telling them the Lakers are a great organization and he's proud to work for them, and that he has no problem keeping his own money with the lakers.

Then the SEC charges the owner, Jerry Buss, with securities fraud, and the Lakers declare bankruptcy and cancel all the games just before the season starts, the Lakers refuse to give out any information to season ticket holders and Buss has disappeared with all the monies.

Publicly, Kobe tells the ticket holders not to blame him, as he never got paid a cent he was owed before the bankruptcy. Then the LA Times reveals internal laker memos that show Kobe was paid in full before the season started. And Kobe admits that's true, but now says what he meant was that he never received the money, he had the Lakers pay it directly other players who needed loans, and now it looked like the players wouldn't be able to repay him, so essentially he's out all that money too.

Would you be mad at the LA Times for forcing Kobe to disclose what he really did? Would you think he had no obligation to be honest about his dealings with the Lakers when he helped convince season ticket holders to fork over for next season in advance?

And when Kobe is getting paid $20m per season and vouching for Buss with investors and season ticket holders, do you not expect him to take some personal responsibility for not asking the Lakers basic questions about their financial strength? Do you expect him to say "I'm out" when asked to help with the investigation?

Antonius made out that he was going to the biggest victim in FT ripping everyone off.....since he wasn't saying this to his accountant I guess he could of been trying to play to the people who really have their lives ruined by this. He only had $100 in his account and so far it seems that the $5,000,000 is going to players unamed. Seems quite fair to me to smell some BS

i think its very difficult to judge how someone who has loaned money should proceed in this kind of situation

loans are built first on trust, and then there are business assumptions that allow one to expect their repayment and any interest

it seems entirely reasonable that patrick speaking publicly about any loans could both damage not only his personal relationship with the stakes and decrease the odds of his repayment, but also possibly damage them financially if it changed how other players interact with them


so with both your metaphor and the actual PA situation i think it is close to impossible to make an unbiased judgment, i think there are some high stakes players who could provide some good insights

as for the manner of disclosure, i think many press organizations would handle it differently, but my main point i was about the unfair criticism PA was receiving

i don't really know enough about Noah to want to comment about it was handled, i don't think it was with malicious intent, and judging by his last comment i may have misinterpreted an earlier post

Ansky,

From info that has come out, yes, the big time nosebleed red pros didn't need to have money in their account to play nosebleeds because they could make a call and what they needed would be credited to their account by FTP.

Can you not see how normal people can have an issue with this? The 10k bankroll of 100 grinders would be shipped to team pros accounts, and if they lost it would just come out of future salaries. So when a nl25 player railed a huge game and said to theirself " man that pot was worth more than 1000x my whole roll"..... That pot was actually the roll of a thousand nl 25 guys, and FTP just hoped they could pay for it in future rake.

It would be a treat to be able to (with my $100 account), have FTP credit my account with 1mm and steak a buch of people, and collect if they win, have it not come out of my pocket if they lose, and if FTP fails, claim that I'm owed millions.

Join the f club, PA.

i can't believe i'm even still wasting my time in here, but LOL what's he supposed to do before signing, request that they open the books and let him perform an audit of the company's assets? that's standard practice for anybody who is paid to endorse (lol "shill") a business?

and when was PA ever dishonest? he said he stood to lose millions, whether it's millions in his account or millions in the accounts of people he's backed or loaned money to, it's still money that HE stands to lose.

some of the posts in here are just amazing and like somebody else sad, it makes me sad to see all the ridiculous assumptions and distortions of fact because PA has always been nothing but class