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Old 02-04-2012, 07:37 PM   #1
FatalError
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From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 WSOPc

http://pokercast.twoplustwo.com/list...hp?episode=207

Fast forward to 65 minutes in as details of hidden "staff appreciation fees" at all WSOPc events run by Poker Tournament Consultants (a company owner and operated by now retiring WSOP floorman Jimmy Sommerfeld). Great explanation at the end by Matt Savage as to why these are terrible for poker.

The basic idea is that when you sat down at your table some % of your stack is held in the dealers well and you are required to pay extra rake, in cash, with no receipt and no accounting of where it goes. This is without a doubt a MANDATORY addition rake on all events. Current estimations show that PTC collected ~1 million USD during the course of the circuit season, enriching themselves substantially beyond their expected compensation from Harrahs for providing their services.

This type of predatory behavior by those people running poker tournaments is destroying poker, money is being collected by the fistfulls from the lower rungs of the poker world and taken out never to return, all by the staff running the events. Just like everywhere else in America today the 1% that controls the infrastructure of the poker world are taking as much as they can get away with from the rest. If we allow this to be swept under the rug and don't make a big deal about this they'll just take more from us next year and so on until they've sucked the poker world dry.
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Old 02-04-2012, 07:41 PM   #2
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

money is not evil.. greed is evil.. give someone 500 a week in free money well they want 1k then 2k then 10k then 100k its never ****ing enough... nobody looks at the big picture (ftp) they just want the quick buck now and **** tomorrow.,
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Old 02-04-2012, 07:43 PM   #3
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That's crazy no one figured this out sooner
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Old 02-04-2012, 07:45 PM   #4
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

i was bitching about it a long time ago. i wondered the validity of it, but had no information and never brought it up outside of the discussion from MTTC-live (https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/65...vealed-841246/). there was a discussion in here i believe a while back about it. i believe a former circuit dealer brought it up and was accusing jimmy of pocketing the money.
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Old 02-04-2012, 08:10 PM   #5
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Another link to podcast:

http://pokercast.twoplustwo.com/

Last edited by Deuce2High; 02-04-2012 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 02-04-2012, 08:39 PM   #6
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

p5's thread where an anonymous source makes a variety of claims about PTC and the extra rake they collect, and where it might be going. seems like the dealers could be greater victims than the players in all this.

http://www.pocketfives.com/f7/hey-ha...erfeld-621108/
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Old 02-04-2012, 09:02 PM   #7
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Wow
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Old 02-04-2012, 09:11 PM   #8
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

first of all, these practices are reprehensible and needs to stop, but can we stop with the "ZOMG 1%" stuff already
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Old 02-04-2012, 09:20 PM   #9
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenBears View Post
first of all, these practices are reprehensible and needs to stop, but can we stop with the "ZOMG 1%" stuff already
IDK, when the 99% are looking around and wondering what the **** happened to decent jobs in the US of A, it's difficult to avoid the topic completely.

But I agree that it is irrelevant here. OP's topic is just general douchebaggery, not fundamental economic change.
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Old 02-04-2012, 09:23 PM   #10
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Wonder if this has anything to do with this?

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/65...odbye-1149121/
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Old 02-04-2012, 09:35 PM   #11
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

And now Jimmy's retired, how convenient. I'm playing WSOPc at Caesars in AC next month, and I know it's not much but I will def be raising the concern there to other players about the issue, who aren't on 2p2, etc. As well as letting the tournament staff know the unpublished, hidden fees are unacceptable and shady.

I spoke with Kessler at BWO Borgata a few days ago and after mentioning I might head down to WSOPc in West Palm, he let me know about the whole issue of the extra fees attached that aren't published anywhere, I was pretty shocked.
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Old 02-04-2012, 11:00 PM   #12
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Was Jimmy responsible for the dealer bonus tip as well?
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Old 02-05-2012, 12:34 AM   #13
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

I wonder if Jimmy's retirement is a coincidence or did he get a whiff of possible investigations or news events exposing the scam, that caused him to decide to retire. And how long has this been going on?
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Old 02-05-2012, 12:49 AM   #14
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

But everyone loves Jimmy! The structures are so great!
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Old 02-05-2012, 12:58 AM   #15
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But everyone loves Jimmy! The structures are so great!
lolol wp
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Old 02-05-2012, 01:25 AM   #16
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Originally Posted by GoldenBears View Post
can we stop with the "ZOMG 1%" stuff already
THIS! FFS
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Old 02-05-2012, 01:28 AM   #17
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

I'm so sick of this ****. Seems like if you aren't skimming from the top or scamming you are the exception.
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Old 02-05-2012, 01:42 AM   #18
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Originally Posted by kk405 View Post
I wonder if Jimmy's retirement is a coincidence or did he get a whiff of possible investigations or news events exposing the scam, that caused him to decide to retire. And how long has this been going on?
I can tell you that Jimmy has been thinking about leaving poker for over a year, both he and Teresa have grown tired of traveling and with them becoming grandparents this was the deciding factor. He has been going to auctions, estate sales and even buying storage lockers for the past year. He got his auctioners license and has leased 2 buildings for doing auctions near Memphis about 10-15 miles from his home. The 3% and the $10 addon is split between the dealers and the staff at 70-30%.
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Old 02-05-2012, 01:50 AM   #19
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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I can tell you that Jimmy has been thinking about leaving poker for over a year, both he and Teresa have grown tired of traveling and with them becoming grandparents this was the deciding factor. He has been going to auctions, estate sales and even buying storage lockers for the past year. He got his auctioners license and has leased 2 buildings for doing auctions near Memphis about 10-15 miles from his home. The 3% and the $10 addon is split between the dealers and the staff at 70-30%.
Even if that is true this is shady as hell.

I register for the tournament, pay my money, and expect X starting chips because its a WSOPC event.

I show up at the table and don't have a full starting stack?

This isn't how you handle staff add ons.

The only reason I can think of for doing it this way is that you are a contractor trying to pull one over on the host of the tournament, the players, the dealers, or all of them.

I'm not entirely opposed to a staff add on as long as the amount is reasonable, the dealers get a fair portion, and its understood I won't be tipping if you take 3% and a staff add on.

The problem is generally you have to ask 9 different people to find out where the money is going and subsequently if/how you should tip.

Last edited by TheJacob; 02-05-2012 at 01:58 AM.
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Old 02-05-2012, 01:56 AM   #20
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Even if that is true this is shady as hell.

I register for the tournament, pay my money, and expect X starting chips because its a WSOPC event.

I show up at the table and don't have a full starting stack?

This isn't how you handle staff add ons.

The only reason I can think of for doing it this way is that you are a contractor trying to pull one over on the host of the tournament, the players, the dealers, or all of them.
Everyone knows how greedy Harrahs is if the addons are put in with the buyin I gurantee that the staff and dealers will not see one dime of it Harrahs will just keep it as extra rack.
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Old 02-05-2012, 01:58 AM   #21
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Yeah, This is pretty ridiculous. Way to stand up OP, This thread has been needed for a while. No receipt etc, its a total joke and a slap in the face to all the customers.

Quit making up names up for extra charges and call it what it is(rake). PTC/WSOP should show documentation of where all this money has been going.
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Old 02-05-2012, 02:00 AM   #22
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtex21 View Post
Everyone knows how greedy Harrahs is if the addons are put in with the buyin I gurantee that the staff and dealers will not see one dime of it Harrahs will just keep it as extra rack.
It would be accounted for and anyone would be able to ask where the money goes.

I trust that more than some guy filling up a wheelbarrow with twenties in the conference center.

Considering how registration is normally handled and a lot of the time no cash is used in the tournament area I'd be curious if they are even equipped to properly accept cash in this way.
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Old 02-05-2012, 02:02 AM   #23
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Originally Posted by GoldenBears View Post
first of all, these practices are reprehensible and needs to stop, but can we stop with the "ZOMG 1%" stuff already
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Old 02-05-2012, 02:20 AM   #24
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Just aother player who said they were doing this a while back and no one believed me, nor cared. GL MTT players.
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Old 02-05-2012, 02:33 AM   #25
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Originally Posted by TheJacob View Post
It would be accounted for and anyone would be able to ask where the money goes.

I trust that more than some guy filling up a wheelbarrow with twenties in the conference center.

Considering how registration is normally handled and a lot of the time no cash is used in the tournament area I'd be curious if they are even equipped to properly accept cash in this way.
^^this

i 100% trust money that is paid for and players have a RECEIPT to show it was paid for.

i don't trust some guy named jimmy who won't give me a receipt and uses some company to outsource his work and collects money in shady ways and never did.
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