Ok but even if you completely shifted the lineups between the formats season 3 wouldn’t have been as entertaining and the 50K Poker Cup would be more watchable. (Although I’ll watch something like the 50K Poker Cup regardless if I have time since skill level is so high)

Anyhow main point is that GTO isn’t in itself boring, it’s just somewhat of a by product that the new generation using it has a lot less personality in general. Just a function of the robotic nature, no real random stuff, and/or engage in speech play and get into grudge matches and so forth

Personality wise the GTO bots don't have a lot to offer but the passive play from the early seasons of HSP wasn't super entertainment either. Alot of check calling and the big pots were mostly setups or the occasional spazz. That's why the mix of player types makes the best entertainment. You don't need more than four players with personality or one or two spazz donks like Persson or Keating. Just look at when Airball owned Jungle. I can see him do that to Linus or Trueteller but I doubt that happens with Garret or Ivey.

Full ring GTO is boring af and most televised games are 8-9 handed

This guy nailed it. Besides watching as a form of study, is there any entertainment people find in these things?

I may be off on the date slightly, but I believe the first non-limit holdem game in AC was the 5/5 Pot Limit Holden game at the Tropicana circa late 2000, early 2001. I remember playing in the $10/$20 and $20/$40 limit games at the Taj and coming down to the Tropicana one night when I heard about that game being spread. There were some real characters in that game. AC Nicki (who was kicked out of almost every casino in AC), biker Mike who died not too long after that, and Rocco (who went on to be one of the better consistent regs at the Borgata for many years) all played in that game. Nicki along with a few other 'connected' ppl were in that game as well, so the wise guys were well represented there lol. The looks were classic when I, a 29 yr old baby face kid, along with a friend sat down and bought into that game for the first time. They thought we were lost lol.

I remember my buddy bought in for $500 playing non-limit for the very first time and the second hand in he turns a K high flush on a non-paired board, only to GII against someone with the nut flush. His $500 would have lasted him all night in the 10/20 game at the Taj and it was gone in about 5 minutes lol. I will never forget the look on his face.

Another quick story - Used to play in a local $5/$10 limit holdem game in MD starting back in 1998 to about 2002. I made a lot of money off that small game as the players were terrible. One night I had grinded about a $300 profit for the night. We were watching some of Scotty's 1998 WSOP final table win and the host decides the last round of deals will be a special NL Holdem round just to test it out. The very first hand I get AQ suited and the flop is AQ7 rainbow. I end up getting it all in against the host, who of course just happens to have 77 and my $300 profit was gone in one single hand lol! I remember thinking how terrible that format was and there was no way it would ever take over limit holdem. Guess I got that wrong

I may be off on the date slightly, but I believe the first non-limit holdem game in AC was the 5/5 Pot Limit Holden game at the Tropicana circa late 2000, early 2001.

Those dates sound about right. I'd moved back east in the 90's and there were no big bet games. Once this game started up I'd drive up to AC a couple of times a month from DC to play in those games. Then NL finally came to home games in DC area post Moneymaker and could save the gas

Bingo!

I don't study GTO, have a vague understanding of what it is. Don't follow poker to closely anymore either. Played online for a living a few years, then live after black friday for about 5 years. So I'm somewhere between a rec and a pro. To myself and other like me GTO ~ these terrible , awful to watch high roller events. I can tolerate them since I love poker. But even when those guys in those events play in the cash games, just very little personality and entertainment value. Even the less autistic ones are still pretty stiff.

Dwan was the unicorn. Whether it was his style + run good, or perfect timing in the poker timeline or a combination of all of those factors. It "worked"!

Better online players like Jungleman who even had cooler nicknames. Terrible for TV.

New biggest and best player Isildur. Terrible for TV

New crazy action, aggresive player Zigmund. Terrible for TV

All the guys after , Ike, Fedor etc - god awful to watch . probably real nice guys, super smart, very successful - just not entertaining at all , when I think these guys I think "GTO" and I have no clue if those guys play GTO!

Some guys just have it. Problem is when they don't and try to change and dress different or something to look "cooler" it's almost even worse.

Sorry missed the pot limit detail but my point is GTO isn't this boring nitty style some of you seem to think it is. Now the folks practicing gto that's a different story

you keep going back to nitty. nobody really has said anything about nitty. Being generous,95 percent of GTO based players play super slow and are pretty anti social. It's extremely boring to watch and extremely damaging long term to poker in general. Most of these guys are slaves to the sim and just look at every hand in a vacuum as if it's the last hand on earth. If they have to tank for 5 mins to make a decision that's 84 cents in ev better they'll do it without any regard to the long term ev they're lighting on fire bc they're completely oblivious to it.

My primary objective when playing poker has always been to make money. But i want to enjoy myself doing it. I've stayed in games for a couple hours longer than I would have otherwise bc they people were fun even when I wasn't much of a favorite at all (if i even was a favorite) and knew for a fact that several people were better than me. I know multiple financially successful people who used to play a ton of poker an barely play anymore who will still happily lose in the pit bc they're getting no entertainment value for their money. When GTO bot tanks and comes to the optimal decision he thinks he gained ev and in the short term he's right. And his behavior is making him need to study his solvers a lot more to make a lot less bc it poisons the games.

Imagine if the NBA had no shot clock. And Lebron could just stare at the court for as long as he wanted until he could figure out the exact optimal move to make and as long as he wasn't moving with the ball his opponents weren't allowed to try and steal the ball. Those NBA players would still be the best basketball players in the world and nobody would watch.

So it's more the personality of the player you take issue with then than the actual style of play. Perhaps of topic but I think live cash would be well served to implement a shot clock. It's not just the gto bots wasting time.

High stakes poker seasons can be judged like a bunch of movies, or seasons of a series, instead of "poker-wise". Then it becomes quite clear.

Early seasons so interesting, new and original, great characters, great script.

Steadily upping the ante with the guys we know, with the climax in season 4 (the million dollar cash game).

Then Dwan came around, he was a great character, very well written, and well casted.

After that we finally saw the legendary Super Boss Ivey in full action.

And then it basically went south real fast. There was one season with Dwan and Paris Hiltons ex winning loads, which was kind of cool, but that's it.

They have a shot clock in a lot of high rollers now. That's the format that has by far the highest percentage of "GTO players". The issue some people have is that there are no snap decisions in that approach. Therefore it might feel slow even though they act within the shot clock.

Well to me a 60 to 90 second clock is plenty. Cant stand people taking 5+ minutes on a single street

I don't know of any shot clock event where the clock is longer than 60 seconds. IIRC the WSOP high buy-in events use a 30 second clock. Plus a couple chips for additional time.

the actual style of play leads to the tanking and anti social behavior. these players don't understand live poker is best as a social soft hustle. they're slaves to what the computer tells them to do and oblivious to anything else going on at the table.

So sure if everyone else at the table is a gto bot then you're giving up too much not doing the same thing- but who the hell wants to play in that game let alone watch it?

The High Rollers had a lot more recs proportionally when they first started than they do now. Business guys didn't just stop playing bc they lost.

Imagine a pool hustler has himself a nice mark with a lot of money.
Every time it's his turn to shoot he parades around the table analyzing the exact optimal shot to take, taking 1-2 minutes each time and maybe even 5 minutes in really tough spots. He probably will in fact take a slightly higher ev shot each time and he will also lose his mark.

I'm all for a poker shot clock. I'm not sure of the logistics of it but I'd even want the clock to be way faster than what most people want the shot clocks to be.
While you're correct it's not just the gto players who waste time, they waste time at a very disproportionate rate.