I mean I admit its not a particularly great solution. But if that's the only thing that will prevent a war of imperialist aggression (with the concomitant death and destruction see Iraq) then its just about worth it. If the US weren't so gung ho hardcore boner time about "bringing democracy" every which way I'd feel very different. The perfect world is a humane and fair US foriegn policy then no one would need nukes but let's be realistic here.

Tom threw in the towel a while back. He just wants some excitement now.

The claim that our only options are war or Iran with nukes is the same false premise that also leads neocons and hawks like Bolton to support starting a war with Iran.

This is less nuanced thinking than George W. Bush brought to the table.

Read a history book os.

You may want to take into account that Israel will probably not allow Iran to have nukes. So the usa/europe failing to stop it might have really bad consequences. Of course Iran may take this into account as well. All part of the dangers of trump - and according to our ex-ambassador, all because he don't like Obama.

I sometimes joke that I like to think that the cause of WW1 could be traced back to Grannie V refusing young Billy the last slice of battenburg. Maybe WW3 will trace back to Obama having bit of a joke at trump at a press dinner.

If you think the US can be talked down off the ledge the maybe that's worth pursuing. I don't really see it though. The lunatics will get their war by hook or by crook imo.

Ultimately the point is do you really blame Iran? They see the writing on the wall even if you lot refuse to. The US unilaterally pulled out of a deal and in doing so completely chopped the legs out from under the "moderates" and gave the hardliners everything they ever wanted. They need to prove to everyone that attacking them will be costly and painful and they need to do it quick before Iraq II : Part 2 Electric Boogaloo kicks off. They've been pretty damn restrained considering.

Blame is not an either or. Iran is far from blameless, trump is far from blameless. many otehrs are from from blameless

But as usual, who is to blame is one of the pointless and destructive questions ever.

Do you really blame the Nazis for coming to power after Germany was treated so shabbily?

Do you blame the 9/11 hijackers for their acts when we’ve kicked the hornet’s nest in their backyard for decades?

HOW CAN ANYONE (besides the US always) BE BLAMED FOR ANYTHING?

Trump is an idiot.

More at 11.

Iranian civilians will be safer if Iran has a few atomic bombs?

Probably

Yeah... Like it's working out great for the NoKoreans.

If tomorrow out of nowhere they got nukes that could hit america? 100% The journey probably make them less safe.

Combine those two thoughts. They have three and are on a journey to get 20 more. Plus add Israel into your calculations (and realize that atomic bombs aren't hydrogen bombs).

Pulling out of the deal was a bog standard Republican position.

Iraq war was a screw up of monumental proportions (i was very against it like you cannot imagine when it was starting) and yet i am here to claim that Iraq in 10 years will be a greater place than anything Saddam would have allowed it to become.

One can say eternally that US is dirty in the past and has a role in how Iran became what is today and for the past 40 years. But US today has nothing to aim to win from Iran or Iraq with the wars that took place in a reasonably big cynical way (name it). US didnt win anything from the Iraq war. What is it? Some bs companies won contracts but this is the parasitic part of it all and not the aim the US the superpower ever had ie to enrich its war industry. Simply inept people did what they did but in the end Iraqi society will win because of all this mess.

Iran similarly deserves a reset. The way a reset is best to happen is by a revolution of its youth against the Islamofascists. But even if it did happen the bad way in the end Iran would be a better place. It would be back the Persia once was, proud and strong and modern and finally free from bs Theocracy.

It is so simplistically easy to claim US is the big ahole. But US does in inept ways what a superpower always does. The others (and especially some "allies" like Saudi Arabia etc) however are mfers for not growing up, joining the modern world , leaving behind their 15th century logic and showing the great "Satan" US an alternative of progress and reason. They are unable to do that so in my view they earn their misery and today at this point in time it is not US that maintains for them that misery , it is the failure to join the age of reason and humanity. You do not want to admit it but Islam (and not Muslims at birth or those Muslims later in life that simply accept their religion as cultural heritage keeping only the best messages, relating to it in a light, positive, rich in forgiving values, modest cultural and not obsessive theocratic or divisive sectarian level) is the problem in the end much as Christianity was once the problem when it went crazy.

You're average North Korean probably has a terrible life, but it'd be hard to say that an invasion from the US, which is what were talking about when we're talking about a country having nukes, would make it any better.

Really?

So the US has invaded NoKo when I wasn't looking?

I was under the impression that financial sanction and embargo was the tool of choice, so far.

If Iran displays a nuclear weapon tomorrow, all of the financial sanction skipping efforts stop immediately, and the US scores a decisive strategic victory (oh, and Obama's legacy is destroyed). All trade with Iran immediately ceases. Food imports into Iran become critical leverage tools.

Life for the Iranian people would become absolutely horrible for a generation.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...-idUSKCN1UE2PP

These ships will probably eventually secure fuel delivery for the return voyage. Even if Iran has to send fuel itself, from the MEG, but likely some small third party will smuggle fuel locally.

If Iran displays a nuclear weapon, food shipments like this become a huge problem for Iran, compared to the annoyance that it is today.

I think the problem with NK having nukes is not so much the danger it would pose in itself, but rather that it would snowball into more and more countries pursuing these weapons, starting with south korea, japan, etc. Same thing if iran got nukes, their enemies would be desperate to have them as well.

When enough countries get their hands on these weapons the chance of someone using them goes way up and i think it would spiral out of control pretty fast. I would guess there is nothing more dangerous to the planet than nuke proliferation.

https://gcaptain.com/united-states-g...agon-official/

It's a bit of a tragedy of the commons problem. It'd be good for Iran for Iran to have nukes but it's bad for the world the more nukes there are.

Yea they haven't. That's kind of the point of the discussion. If a country gets nukes that can threaten the US or its allies then the US treats the country with kid gloves, if they don't then they end up like Sadam and Gaddafi. US invasions, at least for the last 40 to 50 years have a more worse than better track record and there's no reason why we would expect an invasion of Iran to go any better.

Sigh....

The reason the US hasn't and almost certainly will not invade NoKo is the proximity of Seoul and 5million or so SoKoreans who would face a WWII scale conventional artillery assault measured in tonnes of TNT per square meter. There's no military tactical plan that doesn't assume that the border region of SoKorean is incinerated by conventional weapons in the first 36hrs. NoKo having 1 or 2 nuclear warheads (and no delivery vehicle) has identically nothing to do with it.

As for Libya... They had operational NBC weapons when the US attacked in 1986, and it didn't seem to have made any difference. In 2003, Gaddafi saw that claiming to have NBC weapons wasn't going to prevent the US from coming next for him personally, so he chose to give them up. Subsequently, being a POS eventually lead to his overthrow and violent murder. Vastly more should be done to help the Libyan people right now, but I'm not in charge.

People like Saddam and Gaddafi end up how they do regardless of NBC weapons.