And even if they are, does the percentage of poor white/latinos still make race a poor substitute for class like i suspect it does?

At no point did we use the word "substitute." We said they are interconnected.

But the distribution of wealth is quite disparate along racial lines. Roughly 20% of black people live below the poverty line in America, but just 8% of white people do. There is also a huge gap between white and black people in both mean and median wealth, even when selecting for people who hold bachelor's or even advanced degrees.

It's naive to think that working strictly along class lines will close racial disparities. It certainly hasn't up to this point.

But he's saying it's "one of" of the factors. It's just pointless semantics to frame that as a strong point of disagreement unless you think it's been a very minor or irrelevant issue.

You were distinguishing his perception from yours.

It's not going to go anywhere when you're being intentionally cryptic.

You suggesting that few if any have genuine convictions about race issues is the equivalent of a democrat arguing that republican austerity is only ever about racism.

You're stuck not because it takes only one person to be attacking the power structure in the name of racial equality to make what you're saying false, but because it's clearly a factor in issues related to social spending and immigration even when it's not being explicitly mentioned.

It's not the ONLY reason people object to universal health care or welfare spending. It's not the ONLY reason people might want to get tough on immigration. But it's clearly a big part of what drives people to these positions.

If identity politics didn't attack the power structure, you wouldn't hate it.

Plus the additional advantage for upper class elitist whites focusing on race equity is that the wealth distribution can be shifted so the middle classes bear the brunt of the cost. This is obviously a lot harder when focusing on class.

I am sure whatever strategies upper class elites have for wealth distribution won’t significantly impact their own ability to accumulate wealth and pass it on to their progeny.

California is a great example of this in action. Pretty much all the rich people are super liberal, and yet the more they dictate policy the more they accumulate wealth at the expense of everyone else. This isn’t an accident.

Funny how The Atlantic is the new Pravda...when did it get that way?

Lol
And if I told you that around 50% of white people are middle class and around 45% of black people are middle class would that surprise you? Here is a graphic. I'd previously looked at 2015 numbers I think and it was higher but the middle class percentage is falling for everyone.

Probably should find something comparing blacks vs other races directly instead of lumping them so I'll look for that.

Tell me about where power resides and how what you consider identity politics to be is attacking it.

Sometimes you can end up with what appear to be very wide gulfs in opinion that stem from some minor differences. I'm barely even sure what we're talking about honestly but I think my reframing there is fine.
Yes and you're right--I probably shouldn't just assume that he thinks it isn't psychological.
Dont know how I am.
I'm not suggesting that.

So basically you're saying "racism/white supremacy/racial thinking" is a factor. I've never denied that. I don't think it is everything. That is the issue.
And where do you think power lies more: in the hearts of people or in institutions? Because I think that's a big part of this debate too that has been neglected until now. As long as those who I'm arguing with think that political power emanates from the bottom-up through the hearts of men first as opposed to from the top-down through media driven narratives and institutions, progress here will be difficult. And I do obviously think the hearts of people are important or there wouldn't be so much effort spent propagandizing--but when it comes to "attacking the power structure" it's a pretty important distinction.

I have no idea what you mean by "where power resides". Like you want an address? 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, then.

As far as I can tell, "identity politics" is whenever anyone complains about unearned privilege. It is saying that the structure of society is wrong and should be changed.

And you know better. You know that people need to respect the cops and leave rich people's money alone. You know that Maduro is a tyrant who should be removed from office, but Donald Trump is the victim of a witch hunt over no collusion.

Can you explain how and why this cost-shifting will occur?

Upper class elites oppose wealth redistribution, yes, correct. That's why they do **** like fund Prager U videos to teach how identity politics is a Cultural Marxist plot to hurt white people's feelings.

What policy, specifically, would you provide as an example of a liberal policy dictated by the elites that caused them to accumulate wealth at the expense of everyone else?

No. Trump isn't the victim of a witch hunt and I haven't said that. I've said he is a participant in a play. Lol about respecting cops. You can't help but lie and misrepresent. I said that I've literally heard stories from europeans who've said they got out of the car and almost had incidents from not knowing how to act with police. And I never said anything about redistribution or money in that sense.
Fly,
How is identity politics going about changing the structure of society? Do you think voting for democrats will achieve that and why is it that you seem to think The Atlantic prints revolutionary material?

By advocating for change to policy and public attitudes.

Civil rights movemnets in the 1950s and 60s produced the VRA and CRA.

LGBT activatists made enormous gains in the past two decades. Sodoomy was illegal in a significant portion of the United States in 2003. Gay marriage went from being a beyond-the-left-wing-fringe view in 2004 to the law of the land by 2014.

If you did care about policy, or anything besides fluffing your own ego-driven persecution complex, you'd realize that voting for Democrats DID achieve making gains in advancing various nondiscrimination measures, while Trump is doing **** like kicking trans people out of the military.


The Atlantic does not print revolutionary material, but if it did, you'd ****ing loathe it! You think it's a left wing paper now, if you ever read Jacobin you'd have a stroke.

No Fly. It's a right-wing paper. That's why it's promoted. That's why it's the "slickest propaganda there is".

I'll dispute the idea that gay marriage was some super radical idea 2004 or that civil rights in general are radically changing the structure of society. I'm sure there is a lot of room for argument there but it's still basically just neocons running things and our system seems as corrupt as ever.
If you want to point to the civil rights movement and say that it represents the successes of identity politics then ok. I don't want to argue that these sorts of issues aren't important, but when it comes to "attacking at the power structure"-- social issues are a long ways away from things like imperialism/permanent war, Wall St. abuses, income inequality, etc, and from what I'm reading it is this aspect of MLK that has been "memory holed".
Of course you or someone else will say "the true leftists do discuss all that but the media ignores it". And I'm sure there is a lot of truth there. But then again those issues aren't identity politics issues either. So we're almost at the point of talking in circles here.

I don't know Wookie plans to go about making sure there is an equitable % of poor blacks and whites, because apparently that is the biggest problem in American society. Whatever the vision is, I doubt it involves rich elites giving back any of the wealth they have accumulated.

I don't know if you know who the rich elites are in California. I can tell you they aren't PragerU fans.

That one is easy. Ridiculously restrictive zoning laws and bureaucratic red tape in new construction make sure there is always a massive permanent shortage of housing, especially affordable housing. This artificially causes real estate prices to skyrocket. Therefor, only the rich elites can own property, which they rent out to the middle class and poors (not in their neighborhoods of course. They make sure real estate is so expensive in their neighborhoods middle class and poors can't even rent). So they own all the property and accumulate all the wealth.

California elites know that property is the most effective and efficient way to accumulate wealth. So they make sure they are the only ones that can own any, at least in any desirable area that actually has jobs. I hear there is some affordable trailer homes in Riverside.

Fighting against identity is an identity conflict. A competition for supremacy of identity. Whereas those who practice ‘identity politics’ are inferior and can be dominated by gossiping and speculating inanely about them stereotypically.

OK but if you were one of the people who were previously second class citizens you can imagine they might disagree, right? A recurring theme here is that you appear not to understand that the videos of people on the news.. those things are really happening. Real people suffer because of government policy. Not having any empathy for other people is bad.


This is what's so upsetting about your aggressively uninformed **** here. Yes, his radical nature is downplayed... by the people who teach you your talking points. Remember when you ineplixably lied about Republicans being behidn the CRA?

MLK was a socialist AND an anti-racist, two things you oppose. You said it yourself, you've always hated identity politics despite not being able to define it.

There's no real talking at all, you don't seem to have any point. Like all you can ****ing do is point at all the problems the left complains about then get mad at liberals and leftists for trying to solve them.

What's your plan, besides watching more Youtubes about how they are turning the frogs gay?

You don't read. Don't talk down to people who do.

Elizabeth Warren has quite literally proposed a wealth tax.


OK.

The NIMBY/YIMBY divide isn't really a state level policy, zoning is done at the local level. But what the **** does that have to do with liberal social policy? Anti-construction sentiment is often explicitly right wing and heavily motivated by racism!

Well, the areas of California that are anti-constructionist are for the most part solid blue and you won't see any MAGA hats, but you will see a lot of #resist and #BLM bumperstickers. I guess if you want to argue it is all an act that is fine. I won't argue with you there.

Lots of people voting for the Democratic party is not the same thing as being far left on policy. You are using a lazy proxy.

Old white dudes.

(Imagine a fully grown adult having to have randos on the internet explain this to them)

Wait, isn't that my argument? That the wealthy elites controlling both parties have no interest in real wealth distribution; and all these culture war fights over reparations, trans bathrooms and confederate statues are just smoke screens.

It's good that you've decided to give up talking to me since you seem to lack the ability to actually engage with ideas. Perhaps this is why you place such a strong emphasis on aquiring ideas through books where there isn't the give and take process that occurs in discussion.
Don't tell me I don't have empathy for other people. Your entire post is a nonsense non-sequitor personal attack that does nothing to address anything I said.
Telling me that i support racism and don't read. Your smugness is really special.
I haven't seen you do anything to define it yourself other than as some sort of vague opposition. And I'm super fine taking the Blackwell porngraphy line of "I know it when I see it". And that is what we are working at here in this thread.
This is what you've hit on. Wookie as well--which is basically "we have a policy prescription, you don't, so shut up".
It's a joke of course. I have tons of ideas. I just don't see the need to fantasize about them, at least not publicly. But I'd like to see northern Mexico safe. Eliminate the drug and people trade to end the crazy violence there. Have a truth and reconciliation commission. Probably a new constitutional convention. Expose all the lies. New sources of energy. Eliminate imperialism and all sources of ill in the world and especially in the Americas but everywhere.
But I'm also realistic Fly. I don't think any of those things are possible until there is some impossible critical mass of people. So the best I can do is talk about stuff with people. I'm sure you think you're doing the same here.
You keep acting like I have some problem with leftism. But if your idea of things is just to pull back from the middle east and reinvest in people instead of wall st, address issues of monetary policy, etc--I'm fine with that. Might as well do more but it's a start. If you want to tax the rich I'm fine with that too. Whatever you want. I don't vote.
The idea here is to actually describe what is going on though.
You realize those people are the mainstream media and the public school system?
Yes. You're right. More democrats opposed it but they also passed it. You see how easy it is to admit a mistake?

Well, for one, you accused me of being a member of this group. I am not. For two,

These are only smoke screens if you are lucky enough to be unaffected by them and lacking in personal empathy.