Re: libertarianism in the time of covid - Politics and Society -- Two Plus Two Poker Forums

It is if you’re not a State-ist that resorts to forcing people with violence to do what you think is right.

Although I think keeping people informed about the virus and letting them make their own decisions is the best way to handle this thing, it’s the principle. You don’t get to shutdown businesses and lockdown people under the threat of violence simply because you think you know what’s best for them.

The government isn’t always right, neither are experts. And they both are capable of lying. So do your own research and make your own choices.

Last edited by well named; 06-23-2020 at 09:26 AM.

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06-22-2020 , 04:16 PM

d2_e4

certifiable moron

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 12,159

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Originally Posted by luckproof

It is if you’re not a State-ist that resorts to forcing people with violence to do what you think is right.

Hyperbolic much? All laws are enforced with the implicit threat of "violence" as you call it.

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06-22-2020 , 04:19 PM

MrWookie

Don't Call Me Meredith

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 94,159

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Originally Posted by luckproof

Right, true freedom is forcing people to work for you in a pandemic under threat of homelessness and starvation.

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06-22-2020 , 04:20 PM

well named

poorly undertitled

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 78,077

fwiw, some previous conversation with luckproof about libertarianism can be found here: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...-order-1766717

I thought it was fairly interesting.

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06-22-2020 , 04:21 PM

Huehuecoyotl

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Originally Posted by luckproof

Principles don't stop the virus for spreading. You also have an externalized problem in that businesses and people themselves aren't financially responsible for the spread within the community, but if you make them financially responsible then you'd easily bankrupt any company/person and/or it'd take an indeterminate time to figure out how much financial responsibility each business/ person has.

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06-22-2020 , 04:21 PM

goofyballer

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Quote:

Originally Posted by luckproof

It is if you’re not a State-ist that resorts to forcing people with violence to do what you think is right.

If I have COVID and I cough on you without a mask, is that violence?

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06-22-2020 , 04:42 PM

luckproof

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Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,935

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Originally Posted by d2_e4

Hyperbolic much? All laws are enforced with the implicit threat of "violence" as you call it.

It’s not hyperbolic, which you sort of admit in your next sentence, but then you put violence in quotes. So who the F knows.

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06-22-2020 , 04:43 PM

d2_e4

certifiable moron

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 12,159

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Originally Posted by luckproof

It’s not hyperbolic, which you sort of admit in your next sentence, but then you put violence in quotes. So who the F knows.

So you're against all laws? Ok then, cool chat.

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06-22-2020 , 04:52 PM

luckproof

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Originally Posted by MrWookie

Right, true freedom is forcing people to work for you in a pandemic under threat of homelessness and starvation.

Yeah that sucks. Sounds like those people would be better off with more opportunity. How do we get more opportunity again? Or right, free market capitalism, good point.

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06-22-2020 , 04:54 PM

#10

MrWookie

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Originally Posted by luckproof

Yeah that sucks. Sounds like those people would be better off with more opportunity. How do we get more opportunity again? Or right, unionization

FYP

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06-22-2020 , 04:55 PM

#11

luckproof

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Originally Posted by d2_e4

So you're against all laws? Ok then, cool chat.

Nope

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06-22-2020 , 04:57 PM

#12

goofyballer

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Oh great, the same people who pitched free market capitalism as the best solution to slavery and then the best solution to segregation are back with a pitch you'd never expect: free market capitalism as the best solution to COVID-19

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06-22-2020 , 04:58 PM

#13

luckproof

old hand

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Originally Posted by goofyballer

If I have COVID and I cough on you without a mask, is that violence?

You are trying to infect me with a disease that could potentially kill me, so yeah that is a violent act. Got anymore brain busters?

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06-22-2020 , 04:59 PM

#14

luckproof

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,935

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Originally Posted by goofyballer

You should wear a cape and a helmet that says STRAWMAN on it.

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06-22-2020 , 05:00 PM

#15

goofyballer

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Originally Posted by luckproof

You are trying to infect me with a disease that could potentially kill me, so yeah that is a violent act. Got anymore brain busters?

Just making sure we have a shared baseline here. Is the "trying" an important component? i.e. if I have COVID and I'm just casually talking at you (which also spreads the virus) from a couple feet away without a mask on, is that violence?

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06-22-2020 , 05:00 PM

#16

goofyballer

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Quote:

Originally Posted by luckproof

Yeah that sucks. Sounds like those people would be better off with more opportunity. How do we get more opportunity again? Or right, free market capitalism, good point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by luckproof

You should wear a cape and a helmet that says STRAWMAN on it.

lol

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06-22-2020 , 05:00 PM

#17

d2_e4

certifiable moron

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 12,159

Quote:

Originally Posted by luckproof

Nope

So what's your point about "threats of violence"? It's OK to enforce laws you agree with, but not those you disagree with? How long did it take you to formulate this epiphanous principle?

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06-22-2020 , 05:12 PM

#18

RFlushDiamonds

cool

Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 5,969

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Originally Posted by luckproof

Let people and businesses make their own decisions obviously.

How does that work in the real world ?

If you need a job and can't get unemployment unless your work place is closed and your boss opens up because he's a short sighted imbecile, you obviously aren't 'making your own decision'. you are forced to work and expose yourself to the virus or starve.

LOL @ libertarian free will.

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06-22-2020 , 05:16 PM

#19

RFlushDiamonds

cool

Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 5,969

Quote:

Originally Posted by luckproof

Yeah that sucks. Sounds like those people would be better off with more opportunity. How do we get more opportunity again? Or right, free market capitalism, good point.

You know we live in an oligarchy and not any fictional free market that works the way you're suggesting, right ?

What we have is more akin to a feudal system than what you seem to be suggesting.

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06-22-2020 , 06:01 PM

#20

luckproof

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Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,935

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Originally Posted by goofyballer

lol

Making yourself laugh by not making a point. Yikes

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06-22-2020 , 06:02 PM

#21

luckproof

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,935

Quote:

Originally Posted by d2_e4

So what's your point about "threats of violence"? It's OK to enforce laws you agree with, but not those you disagree with? How long did it take you to formulate this epiphanous principle?

Nonaggression principle

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06-22-2020 , 06:05 PM

#22

luckproof

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,935

Quote:

Originally Posted by RFlushDiamonds

You know we live in an oligarchy and not any fictional free market that works the way you're suggesting, right ?

What we have is more akin to a feudal system than what you seem to be suggesting.

Yes I know this

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06-22-2020 , 06:06 PM

#23

d2_e4

certifiable moron

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 12,159

Quote:

Originally Posted by luckproof

Nonaggression principle

Dropping buzzwords like you've just delivered the biggest nugget of wisdom the world has ever heard doesn't make you sound smart and doesn't make your point any more persuasive. In this case, I can't even parse how that is in any way an answer to my question.

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06-22-2020 , 06:11 PM

#24

MrWookie

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Quote:

Originally Posted by d2_e4

By name-dropping the NAP, he was basically confirming that your assessment was correct:

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It's OK to enforce laws you agree with, but not those you disagree with?

We've had lots of discussions with NAP adherents over the years, and while they like to pretend that "aggression" has a universally accepted definition, it most certainly does not, and it's really just a way to couch pro-capital sentiment with a veneer of acceptability.

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06-22-2020 , 06:15 PM

#25

d2_e4

certifiable moron

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 12,159

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWookie

By name-dropping the NAP, he was basically confirming that your assessment was correct:

We've had lots of discussions with NAP adherents over the years, and while they like to pretend that "aggression" has a universally accepted definition, it most certainly does not, and it's really just a way to couch pro-capital sentiment with a veneer of acceptability.

I see, thanks. The only other time I've ever heard that phrase is when lagtight threw it around before, so I figured it was likely to be some sort of tomfoolery.

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