You keep trying to trick the community into thinking this was a misgendering guideline. If I was a mod I would remove you with no warnings.

So, the guideline that says you can’t misgender someone is not a misgendering guideline? I’m confused, so, if I refer to Bruce Jenner as a he it will not get deleted?

Perfect example of a yahoo making up his own facts without any expertise whatsoever.

No I don't think so. I've been referring to lia thomas as a he repeatedly since. Its not a statement on politics. Its a guideline that affirms that science doesn't say all trans have dysphoria or a mental illness etc. You are welcome to think that bruce jenner is a dude. He is (just my opinion, and I have no problems referring to her as a her or he as a her). But trans people exist. And some are crazy but not all are. Some are otherwise the same and normal.

And then obviously if its known someone here is trans and you are harassing them about it with your opinion that they aren't the gender they claim...like wtf...are you telling us you think thats ok?

puts whole new meaning to this scene

This is obviously misgendering her. And your choice to misgender her is absolutely a “political” choice you make.

I was under the impression that you were attempting to get clarification on what I was trying to say.

What I meant is that we (randoms on the internet) don't get to determine what is a mental disorder or the diagnostic criteria for any of the disorders. The experts (in the form of the APA) get to make the determination. I meant nothing more or less than that.

The APA does exist quite naturally. I don't think you can derive its existence from the laws of physics, and apologize if I somehow implied that. The natural reason for it existing is, in part, that most of us don't want and wouldn't be served well by things such as being a communist or being religious constituting a diagnosable mental disorder.

The line of thinking is:

Person 1: I think that x is a mental disorder.

Person 2: Does it meet the criteria in the DSM-V for being a mental disorder?

Person 1: No, but I really wish it did.

Person 2: Then it isn't a mental disorder, by definition. You don't get to invent mental disorders just because you have a keyboard.

Person 1: Oh, I see. Thank you for your time. I think that artichokes are a type of musical instrument.

OK. I have carefully considered the concerns expressed itt and while the ban on mental illness claims still stands, I have modified the wording of the misgender section. Thenew wording is as follows:

Deliberately misgendering transgender people who publicly present themselves as one gender is considered rude and hurtful by many in the transgender community and is strongly discouraged. However, absence certain context, just the act of using the opposite pronoun in the course of a discussion will not in itself result in deletion or other mod actions. However, statements like "fixed your post " while changing she to he, or bolding a pronoun to emphasize that rather than simply making an on topic post will be considered trolling and removed.

If you have any questions on this, please ask.

That isn't true.* He could be simply being a dick because he isn't a good person, or he could be being a dick for political reasons. Probably several more possibilities exist as well. Maybe even some of them are that he is possibly not being a dick.

*The second sentence, I mean. The first sentence is obviously true.

Yup. I meant this. What I also meant rather was that the new rule isn't meant to be a political decision. The left didn't win. Some people here are complaining they can't misgender based on their own beliefs. You totally can.

Thats not the spirit of the new rule.

It's upheld here that transgender does not MEAN mental illness. Its harassment and spam if you imply it as such.

Its also harassment and spam if you harass people about their gender or pronouns. Hard to think anyone doesn't agree.

But if i think lia winning the ncaa champs is cheating I can call lia a he out of protest. Its ok.

I can also call lia a narcissist and say that I think he has a mental illness.

And my transgender lady friend that likes go by 'they' but to me its only because she thinks its trends, its ok if i refer to her as a she, on this forum (she's not here or relevant etc).

I tried that once here referring to a trans /former trans person who preferred "he" at the time as "she" and people jumped all over me for it.

Turns out I was right and she's a she again.

Those were almost like complete thoughts. I am glad that you are progressing!!!

We don't mean to cloud the mod thread but for now I think its expected smoke etc...

Its my understanding and opinion, that its most normal and appropriate for a transgender person without the affliction of gender dysphoria to treat misgendering as if like the wind passing by. And that is the same way each of us generally would. Obviously harassment is different by not gender topic specific.

We would expect this to be different with someone with gender dysphoria. They have issues with this kind of thing no doubt.

We don't want to bend our belief of nature to the latter right? We want to accomodate people with mental illness etc. but none of us mean to bend reality to others illnesses right?

Mentally healthy transgender people and those with gender dysphoria share the same gender incongruence feelings. In one case, they have been able to handle the discrimination and denigrating comments that almost all transgender people experience. Maybe they havent experienced that much yet. Another may have become debilitated by the extent of negativity directed at them, to the point that they are diagnosed with gender dysphoria.

Is your position then that it's OK to use the opposite pronoun then the one the person uses just because they aren't excessively depressed yet? If you are a school teacher who insists on using male pronouns irt a new student who is a trans woman, who all the other students only know, say as Lisa, thereby outing her as a transgender person and thereby exposing her to all the bigotry and harassment some students will direct at her, its OK just so you can feel smug in your beliefs?

Then due to you outing that student and the discrimination that follows you have essentially driven her to the extreme depression indicative of gender dysphoria. To say it's OK to misgender trans people without gender dysphoria can actually contribute to them becoming mentally ill.

It strikes me as odd that some people act as if they would be "selling their soul" simply by showing someone the courtesy of using the same pronouns the person does.

In a way, it sort of reminds me of the people who refused to call Cassius Clay by Mohammed Ali when he changed his name. It was "I dont give a **** what he calls himself, he's Cassius Clay". Yet those same people had no problem calling movie stars by their stage names, like Rock Hudson or Cary Grant.

OK. Im not going to move or delete the posts, but please let's get back on track with mod stuff itt. I understand thine fascination with grammar, but thou would be best served by going to the general discussion thread where thy all can share thine ideas.

This is a bit of an aside, but I don't think gender dysphoria is the only reason "non healthy" or "mentally ill" people transition. (Typing that out really hammers in chillrob's point imo, there is definitely a disconnect between what I'm trying to get across and the available word choice to describe non healthy reasons someone might transition.)

this feels reasonable

The difference here is twofold, both easy to understand.

The first is that they previously got to know of him as CC. Even if they knew the other guys used stage names, they learned of the stage names before the birth names.

The second, at least for some people, was also the context of the name change. He changed his name along with a religious conversion which was seen by some to be insincere, as he at the same time used it to avoid the draft. The fact that it was an unpopular religion and a name extremely indicative of that religion didn't help matters.

The DSM definition of Gender Dysphoria given by Brian doesn't mention anything necessarily resulting from discrimination or harassment. It doesn't have to come from any external stimulus (I believe only one of the possible qualifiers mentioned anything external).

. No, it doesnt have to, put often is a major factor. For example if you were constantly the target of jokes and insults at work (like someone telling you you arent a real woman and calling you he all the time) that those types of things dont contribute to someone getting depressed or debilitated, say to the point where they just cant go to work anymore? Or maybe you lose your job, so get into financial troubles. Finally situation seems hopeless and its all tied to your transgender status.

It definitely is also the result of the incongruence itself. But outside interactions can play a major role as well.

Actually those seem similar to me.

Someone meets a trans woman. Everyone is interacting with her as a woman. Then someone discovers she is transgender and being an *******, cant wait for the opportunity to announce to every that "she is really a he" and continues to do so.

With Mohommad Ali, some people, as you state, used calling him by his old name simply to try and be hurtful and delegitimize his name change and new religion. So in both cases the refusal to refer to the person as they publicly present themselves is most often a deliberate attempt to show disapproval rather than adhering to some higher value. They are just being jerks.

I don't think they're always being jerks. And I think Ali deserved some disrespect for his sudden conscientious objector position, claiming to be anti-violence while beating people up for a living.

lol, there’s nothing inconsistent about being anti-war and engaging in contact sports.

That's like criticisng someone for enjoying sex while being anti-rape