You want a justice system like japans?

You think US is hard on defendants Japan has a 99% conviction rate
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20810572

As brutal as Japan’s justice system is, despite its failures, and there are many in humane failures, if America was to implement Japans criminal justice system it would reduce America’s criminal population by about 80%. No I don’t want a justice system like Uk or Japan. Those countries have terrible cjs. I would want something like Norway and Sweden but better. My vision for cjs would take huge change. I’ve listed about 50 changes to our system in this thread I think we desperately need but can easily think of several hundred more.

It’ll be interesting to see how these revelations coming out about juror #52 play out. From what I’ve read so far I don’t believe he did anything that would result in a mistrial, but it seems to me that he’s being dishonest about the D.C. protest and the facts surrounding it. It’s hard for me to believe that he doesn’t remember owning that shirt, and I think it would’ve been appropriate for him to disclose his participation in the questionnaire he filled out.

But from my point of view, what’s even more problematic than his half-truth on the questionnaire is his philosophy that jury duty is a way to bring about societal change. His job as a juror has nothing to do with that; it’s about deciding whether a defendant is guilty or not guilty. That’s it.

I hope this doesn’t come back to bite him. Perhaps he should’ve maintained a lower profile and stayed out of the media.

Even if this does result in a mistrial, I don’t think Chauvin has any shot at winning another trial. Hopefully it doesn’t come to that.

Besides costing the MN taxpayers more money I would love to see a new trial.
Keep giving him hope and then crushing it again.
Kind of like someone putting your one on your neck.

My point about Walmart selling toy guns is that the guy was killed for picking up a product freely available and placed openly on the shelves for people to pick up. He didn't have it prior to entering the store. He took it off the shelf.

Now, I didn't actually draw a conclusion from that. It was a literal re-telling of the actual scenario. What I said to the poster I was replying to was that even if he didn't want to blame the cops, he has to give me something here that he thinks is to blame, because "picking a product off a shelf in one of the world's largest retailers" shouldn't be the type of thing that gets you gunned down before you even get to checkout.

It could be a sign of my own cultural background, but the events as I relayed them make for the kind of incident that's so utterly egregious that I genuinely can't believe people shrug at it and say "Hmm, well maybe we teach kids a bit more about gun safety". In fact, your response is also to just be "Don't point guns at people" when we can rewind the tape, hear witnesses, and be fairly sure that this didn't even happen.

The point of all this is that something as insane as a man being shot dead for shopping in Walmart gets a shrug in response and the most minimal suggestion for change that wouldn't even have made a difference to the case in question.

What happened is a sign that something is deeply broken. Broken to the point that innocent people are getting gunned down by police. And if your response is "Not the cops" then I might even be willing to just grant that for sake of argument, but you have to give me something else that at least looks like it might make a difference or you're just saying "Sometimes innocent people will get gunned down for shopping in a supermarket and that's just the way life is".

Edit: My frustration about America, not directed at anyone in particular, is you'll hear all the jazz about how you must preserve the 2nd amendment in case the government goes tyrannical, but when actual cases of government officials going Judge Dredd on citizens occur, well, that's just the way things are. This is why people say Americans don't get irony.

Is it real justice if it's not a fair trial? The process is more important than the result.

This. And there appear to be no other people around. It's one thing if he's waving the crowbar near some bystanders (even then, I'd probably be on "don't shoot"), but there's no one around and plenty of space. The threat (to the extent there is one) is only to the officer, and the officer is on radio to back up who are almost on the scene.

It's a prime example where we can actually go look at how other forces around the world might handle this situation, and while we can only speculate as to actual outcomes I'm willing to put big money that if a guy has a crowbar in front of an English cop that a solution will be found that doesn't involve someone dying.

Sure, let's do it again.
Going to be the same result. Maybe minus the murder 2.

Yes I don't get it. How is it possible? No, get on the ground, lower you gun police! Just went in the there in shot a guy with a toy gun. Just like silent assassins. Are you kidding me? So now they are just gunning down kids at Wal-Mart too? That was a 22y old kid with a toy gun from the store shelves. And if you watch the video there was a similar case with a 12 year old gunned down recently. Wtf?

This is the 4th gunned down and killed and innocent person this week ive seen. Only from this thread. The caller was an idiot for calling the cops bc he lied about the guy pointing it at people. Nonetheless it was the police mistake to shoot and kill.

I will tell you that ok these 4 people would have loved most likely of that didn't happen in the USA. If you listen to the athlete at the end if the video he's saying he is scared shitless of being gunned down. Well me too. It doesn't take much to be gunned down if you can't hold a toy gun at Wal-Mart.

This guy is not shot in any another country.

Also this guy is not shot in another country.
Also not if he is meeting the right cop USA, a cop which Im about to show you!

You see the difference? If you put this cop on all these cases, nobody dies. He's trained to not kill citizens. Like in Europe for instance. If you put any of the other us cops here they kill the guy. He is holding a real gun and still doesn't get killed. Weird isn't it? No it's called training to preserve lives not take it.

At the end of the video he actually says something incredible. He says he is busy being called to one mental case to the next. It just one after the other. He says he can't do burglaries or other serious crimes bc they are so bombarded with mentally ill cases. And that these politicians just don't know what's going on.

This is the crow bar wielding guy. He was a mental patient. He went in an out if jail, where he was not supposed to be. Then lived in the streets. With drugs and went completely insane. Then a rogue cop came and killed him. He was spat out from your justice system. The USA has a major problem.

And yes @spaceman you're right I thought about it. The biggest mental institutions in the USA are the prisons in fact. I've heard it before. But they are also people's goldmines. So you have parasites who live off the system and addicts who get no help from the system but instead are just betting burnt by it.

Article about the case:
"Authorities have not released the man’s name, but Varso said he is “well known” to Escondido police, with 188 arrests in nearly 20 years, including “violent assaults on police and the public, parole violations, drug charges, vandalism and a host of other property crimes.”

He said there had been numerous attempts by the Psychiatric Emergency Response Team — mental health professionals who work with police — to get him into the mental health system."
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...f-its-officers

I found some stats on world prison population. But I think we talked about it. But yeah you are jailing about 20 times more people than Sweden which is insane if you think about it. And yes to the prison system being the core of the problem. These are repeated offenders in their books when I reality they are addicts and need help. They are either addicts or have serious problems which you don't cure if you stick them in jail. You only make it worse. This kind of help is the opposite if real help.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/h...l/nn2page1.stm

People how lie to 911 and it ending up with a person dead, need to be charged with some form of negligence and even potentially negligent homicide if the deception is significant.

This is an example where a negligent homicide charge would be appropriate IMO.

That lady in the NYC Park definitely should be charged for faking panic and fear and imminent danger in her voice when merely in a stupid argument over where her dog should not be. Had that young man been killed by cops she would fully deserve the negligent homicide charge.

People cannot pretend they do not know what they are potentially unleashing when they fake a heightened threat with a black man in a call to 9/11.

I d like to see that dumb kid who called to cops on him punished, definitely. He changed his story after he was shot. He then said well he actually wasn't pointing at people as cameras showed.

He made it sound like a life threatening terror attack, when in reality it was nothing. So yeah he should be jailed or fined. Stupid dumb kid has to live with it now. Because of his lies or misconception someone died.

But that doesn't change the fact that your police is gunning down too many, way too many people.

The issue with folks and mental health is, they refuse help. Having mental health issues doesn't give you carte blanche to commit violent offenses against others, and it doesn't give you a "get out of free jail card".

With that said I do believe mental health services in prison should be a lot better than they are... But the idea you don't put violent people in jail because they have mental health issues in which they refuse to deal with, is not a compelling argument.

Also, it would appear to me, if anything, the mental health service has failed this guy rather than the prisons. However, it's likely this guy refused to address his mental health.



.

It appears he committed perjury:

You do realize that you can lay a finger on a cop and get charged with assault, right?

That coupled with the fact that we have mountains of evidence showing them straight up lying about events that transpire, and more mountains of evidence showing them turning off audio, video, or having "malfunctions"

I'd be more interested in the 172 that were killed. Could they have been neutralized non-lethally? How many of those people were mentally unstable, or deaf, or delirious for one reason or another?

I can accept bullets may be a solution, perhaps the only solution, in many situations, but the interest should lay in not ****ing killing people at all. We act like death is nbd and it's borne out of the capitalistic/efficiency over all mindset. The sovereign individual mindset. This mindset has led to cops straight up lying and manipulating evidence and backing each other instead of backing us

You want to be evidence-based? Riots are evidence. Protests are evidence. The mere existence, even on a relatively small scale compared to right wing extremism, of left wing extremism is evidence. They exist because of the imbalance of power in this country. Politicians' lies and bad faith rhetoric and gaslighting leads to the callous indifference of the comfortable

Even if you find all the statistics in the world to show this argument or that argument to be valid, you're still left with the sentiment of the public. They are pissed off and tired of this bullshit. I'm a minority, and I'm tired of this bullshit. I'll tell any dickhead who lacks personal responsibility that they are the sum of their actions, but the macro view has got to stop being ignored. We've got individuals potentially becoming trillionaires in their lifetime and yet somehow we can't manage an ecosystem that eradicates homelessness or even bother to offer mental health services to all? We know homelessness is a result of addiction and mental instability in a great many cases! It is insanity...Not dissimilar to the cognitive dissonance it must take to still go to bat for police officers in a system that justifies mowing down people I'm certain most don't give a **** about, at least not in any morally consequential way...

I get that a wife beater or child abuser deserves no sympathy, but at some point we have to understand that we're proliferating wife beaters and child abusers because the conditions that lead to this nation doing great things also leads to a great many terrible things, of which we do nothing to curtail or combat. We just let it happen, and some don't realize they're tacitly doing that by pointing out statistics that justify the violent nature of American culture. We can do much, much better than this

Obviously Chauvin is entitled to a fair trial. If a juror's lies during selection took that away or potentially took it away, then this should be resolved in the legal system.

I don't disagree when it comes to explicit lies or the outright swatting, or even the woman in the park. I do have some hesitation though. For one, we already know that the level of crime reported in some of these is trivial. Floyd was killed because someone reported him using a fake twenty, so I'd just worry that you're making a situation where people need to be absolutely certain it's life or death before calling the cops.

The second problem is it's putting the onus on anyone but the cops again. It potentially just leads to people saying (even more than they do now), hey, if the cops were called then of course this happened, you shouldn't be calling them if you didn't want guns blazing. A lot of normal people are paranoid, stupid, maybe mentally deranged as well, and that's okay. It's the cops who are supposed to be selected and trained to handle those situations. We don't want to make it so that calling the police is a life and death decision. It already is in some cases, but it needs to be less so not more, and placing blame on everyday citizens over the cop that pulls the trigger might have the opposite effect to what we want.


Actually the extent to which you have mental health issues can and does reduce your culpability for crime. I wouldn't call it "carte blanche" but diminished capacity or outright insanity are legal defences, and I think they should be.

Either way, what would you like to do about mental health care? Are you for socialised healthcare? Let's say fee mental health care for people with little to no income like the homeless guy, how about that?

If we had universal healthcare we'd have less prisoners. We'd have less poverty, less homelessness, and less mentally unwell human beings

We know the violent nature of some crimes are directly linked to substance abuse and mental instability, and yet our response is jail or bullets. It is not behavioral therapy, anti-depressants, or AA or some other emphasis of support systems

Meanwhile we have a critical mass of tax evaders and tax sheltering that can pay for programs to combat the very things that leads us to a shrinking middle class and a bottom tier poor cemented in a vicious cycle of poverty. It is a disgrace that the term medical bankruptcy exists and that people who are incapable of the discipline and productivity to preserve their own wealth get no help in the form of mental health services or proper, optimal medical care in the time they need it most. We act like when human beings snap it's solely their fault. I get that no one really wants to open the door to their home to help someone in need, there's too many anyway, and it's impractical, but we can at least provide a place to go other than jail and recidivism

At some point, people have to just admit that out of sight, out of mind is really just living a life of massive cognitive dissonance and indifference due to sheer comfort from womb to tomb, inconveniences of any sort be damned

You are asking a valid question, but is it real justice if George Floyd is dead before his court date, or Breonna Taylor, or Ahmaud Arbery before theirs?

You also sound like you're holding out hope that that dEvAsTaTiNg revelation on day 7 or 8 exonerates this clown on the second time around

If we're going to scrutinize the process, then at least start at the beginning and note that George Floyd should not be dead before his court date. Like you said, the process is more important than the result. I'd argue death is the worst possible result. Solve that, and we don't have to worry about what a juror may or may not have done

That's where the cat bites it's tail. You don't even have institutions, and if there full. Truth of the matter is you don't give a f about mental health in America.

And the prison system certainly doenst care at all.

Read this: the majority is in for drugs, And they get no treatment whatsoever it seems like. They just get out and go in again. It's gets worse and worse. It's just a vicious cycle. Everybody knows this actually who went to prison.

The problem is jails or laws rather are managing this problem. And it is faulty as f. As you can see by all these results.

And yes Teflon is right. It's comes down to wrong priorities, capitalism, not caring about mental health and people in general but all about the mighty dollar. Ban Apple or have them pay taxes like everyone else and build some rehab facilities and opportunities that don't evolve drug trade guns and gangs. Build them a world where everyone can live without getting shot.

https://www.drugabuse.gov/publicatio...iminal-justice

Of course this is a huge problem and contributes to homelessness

The idea is to not have people grow up to end up in that position. People today are screwed. The kids can still be saved, and the effort alone still reaches those willing to be helped. It has to start somewhere. We haven't started at all.

Agreed it would be challenging.

But I think it could be done by providing the 'Citizen 9/11 caller' the types of protections Politicians provide themselves that make it almost impossible to ever prosecute them.

Make the law attached to 'clear intent'. Even when a law is clearly broken it is enormously difficult to prove the person intended to do so. For most normal citizens 'ignorance of the law is no excuse' but Politicians make sure they have that out and they often break the law and get away with it due to that.

So I would say in the case of this Walmart 9/11 caller the case to prove 'intent' would be a borderline one. His telling 9/11 one thing ('the guy is pointing a gun') and him later telling the media another, when he realizes there is likely video footage, is something a jury can deliberate and decide. I think that is a 50/50 for a guilty.

The women in NYC Central Park, I think is a slam dunk guilty as she clearly just fakes a threat mid call to try and get an escalated response from the Police to teach this black man a lesson for daring to confront her about having her dog off leash.

Yes and that juror is going to draw ire from everyone and from all political stripes. The last thing we need in a desperate cry for true, meaningful justice and its potentially subsequent reform, is another Jussie Smollett