The problem is that however much the prisoners volunteer there is always an element of coercion behind that, as its stay in a **** prison or do the work, your choice.

If the prisoner was a free man and would not volunteer to do the work, but does once he is a prisoner then the shittyness of prison has coerced him into wanting to do work he would not do otherwise. That is clear coercion and will obviously be exploitation in certain circumstances.

working in jail is a PRIVILEGE you first need to earn.

why is everyone so slow now?

unbelievable. prisoners would mess everything up, and the one who wouldn't would get extorted out of his money and probably raped.

this is not supposed to be no Disneyland, prisoners are stipped of all joy and that especially includes making good money.

Depends on the prison.

Work can be used as a tool to reform or educate prisoners, to prepare them for responsibilities, life outside or teach them a trade. The idea being that then they can get a job when they get out, instead of returning to crime. That's a pretty good idea.

In other places it can be used as punishment, especially very hard work or dangerous work. It can also be used to exploit prisoners and provide cheap labor.

yes, I have not thought about what other regimes are doing. what I said is not regarding unfair regimes of course.

so what I said only applies to western nations I guess. yes work can be used to prepare them for later life but that only regards prisoners who are considered as rehabilitated, so almost free people. probably a tiny fraction prison population.

Average length of prison stay is less than 2 years in the UK (18 months), in 2019/2020 it was less than one year (11 months).

"Average Wages for Inmates
Typically, wages range from 14 cents to $2.00/hour for prison maintenance labor, depending on the state where the inmate is incarcerated. The national average hovers around 63 cents per hour for this type of labor. In some states, prisoners work for free.27.08.2021
https://onlinedegrees.kent.edu › how...
How Much do Prisoners Make in Each State?"


that amount sounds about right imo. give them more you piss off the relatives of the victims they harmed. give them less it's pathetic.

What victims? USA gulag system is almost entirely drug possession crimes.

Secondly, I don't care about "pissing off the victims". The basis of justice isn't about what a biased victim wants.

And finally, fair wages can be used for restitution.

In this post you prove the cancer of far left irrational thought.

An initiative that involves zero pay for anyone and whom the gov't is not asking the inmates to participate in. That volunteers across the country are lining up to participate in.

Inmate groups put up their hand and volunteer as they would love the opportunity to get out and participate. Do some good while getting outdoor exercise.

Trolly steps in and says 'the gov't must pay or this should not be allowed'.

The gov't then says 'oh we are not budgeting for this. It is a volunteer initiative'.

Trolly says 'well then I opposed the inmates doing it. I know they want to but i am offended on their behalf and would block it'.



You are everything wrong with society on the left Trolly. You would block inmates engaging in sport asking 'why won't they pay them when others get paid for sport' and that is just inane.

Sure but 'stay in prison is ever present and unchanging and not optional'.

Getting out to do the work or play sport is the relief from that. Saying I cannot change A thus B must also be wrong is illogical.


You could make the same arguments about giving inmates meals. that is not coercion free when they are locked up.



You are literally making the argument to take away sport, yard time, food and everything else. They are all part of the coercion chain if you start from a position that because they are locked up (coercion) then all that flows from that coercion is coerced by default.


This is what i say with hyperbole is the cancerous creep of far left thought (not saying you specifically as this is more at Trolly types)

I can recognize that slavery was a terrible wrong.

I can also recognize that the slaves might take some pleasure from small unsupervised moments when they could engage in song, sport or other activities that may have been allowed.

Far left thought sees the latter as wrong and to block because the first is wrong. It is like they treat everything as fruit of the poison tree to be stopped, when the only thiing that would be stopped is the few items of reprieve. They are not ending the jailing or slavery by stopping the dance, sports, activities. They are just making it far more miserable.

And guys like Trolly walk away smug convinced he did some good as he leaves them behind miserable.

No one is arguing to take away sport/ yard time or whatever, you are arguing by extension in a way that clearly does not work.

Sport/yard time or similar only provides a benefit to the person doing it.

And i have been clear i am against the latter and only for activities the prisoners would volunteer for. I have seen first hand how much the prisoners love those types of activities and how much mental reprieve it gives them from the primary torture of prison which is the sameness of day to day.

I guarantee you if prisoners were given the opportunity to participate in the challenge of 'planting a billion trees for climate change' in a citizen based volunteer campaign, the volunteer lines would be massive. And as they got set to do it anyone saying 'stop this work from being done if the gov'ts will not find budget to pay for it and if the gov't had no interest in paying for it, especially when everyone else was volunteering, and someone like Trolly jumped in to OOBOO and block it, with public outrage, the prisoners would want to kill that person.


the prisoners would tell you they are getting more of a benefit than the other volunteers already just by virtue of being let out for a change of scenery to do some work, while getting exercise. That is a thing of value for the inmates.

the prison I worked in was a 2 Years less a day, Minimum Security facility.

About 70% of the populace was American's from Detroit and area and Up State New York area who had crossed the border and committed crimes in Canada. I had taken a year off between HS and Uni and applied for the Kitchen Supervisor role, as i had been working as a short order cook and kitchen manager during HS, in restaurants.

The Supervisors in the kitchen had the closest contact and relationships with inmates than any other Staff. We worked hand in hand beside them helping them prep the daily meals and getting them out. We were also locked in the kitchen with them in a very secure kitchen facility with only a few guards in the room, all well away from the inmates (in perches). We also had to acknowledge when taking the job the risk and that we understood that most prison riots or incidents started in the kitchens as that was were the weapons were. We worked side by side with inmates using the large knives and knew if a riot broke out in the kitchen, we would be locked in with them and largely at their mercy. The few guards in the room were in safer areas and would likely be unable to intercede and would just be reporting out until the prison riot team could arrive.

But because it was a 2 Years less a day facility and the last stop before release, and the work in the Kitchen was so highly coveted, most inmates were on best behaviour. No one wanted to get kicked out of kitchen duty or worse to another more secure prison.

What I learned was how valuable outside stimulation was to these inmates. What they wanted from me more than anything else was stories of what I did outside the jail. Especially bar nights out. Anything to crack thru the monotony of sameness that is prison and IS a form of mental torture.

When I call that torture I mean no hyperbole. I think that sameness is a form of torture. Lesser than being locked in solitaire for your entire confinement but torture nonetheless.

I speak often about 'well meaning lefties and the road to hell' and someone like Trolly intent in keeping them locked up unless they get paid for any and all activities that someone else gets paid for (tree planting, road side cleaning, soccer in the yard, etc) would be just making their time in jail so much harder. He would convince himself he has done some great good for these others, meanwhile these others would suffer massively due to his actions. But he would never recognize that as he would not look back in his own wake, home, secure and sleeping comfortably thinking he did some good.

stop lying

people going hard in the paint to defend slavery(with some extra steps) is very on brand 2+2 politics..

Hiring prisoners off of their own free will and paying them less than market value isn't slavery, its called supply and demand.

Their will is not free, that is the whole point of prison.

The incarceration is not voluntary, but there can still be voluntary programs for inmates.

I think the debate suffers when we try to make blanket statements that cover all prisons. Prisons exist on a scale from "commits the worst atrocities humankind has to offer" to "treats inmates well". Statements about the former are rarely interchangeable with statements about the latter.

That is not in anyway cogent to the point.

In a country with the highest incarceration rate in the world like USA which already has a bunch of perverse incentives for putting people in prison, its important to understand that people suffering coercion agreeing to a price is not a market rate, its a rate set by forces beyond the market. Its nothing to do with the market which requires free will.

Given certain conditions I dont have a problem with inmates doing certain types of work and would indeed have the work be the primary punishment (while keeping the prisoner at home), but its important to understand all the conditions under which the work/activity occur, non of which has anything to do with the market.

lol, is this supposed to make us feel better about the arrangement? Go stamp license plates for peanuts or endure literal torture? That's supposed to be "voluntary?"

ya this nails it.

we can construct all sorts of hypotheticals where it makes sense and even find a few real world examples. but the way this works in the USA is extremely exploitive and cant be defended.

If what you say is accurate O.A.F. then everything from Library time to yard time, to use of the gym is equally compromised as volunteering to clear some brush or the side of the road.

All of those decisions by the inmate are made from a place of captive coercion.

The logic extent of this thinking is Solitaire confinement for their entire internment as doing any better is an additional coercion.

AGAIN, this is not about telling a prison what to do, as your continued lie tries to paint it Trolly. This is about the prisoner desiring certain activities and then the prison finding a way to accommodate.

Trolly if inmates take pleasure in playing music or sports and the prison is will to accommodate that ACTIVITY are you against it since others get paid for those activities too?

if it "...makes sense..." and the prisoners desire it, the idea that OOBOO's would block simply because the system is otherwise abusive is all sorts of stupid and wrong.

'Sorry inmates. I know you are asking. I know you would like it. And I know it would make your time pass easier. But generally the system is abusive and negative so we must not allow you anything you view as positive and that we agree "makes sense". '

but the children love to work in the mines.. they want to work in the mines rather than sit around and do nothing all day.

the insane shifting of the argument to "well the inmates really want to work for pennies.. nothing we can do.." PAY THEM REAL WAGES.