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Israel/Palestine thread Israel/Palestine thread

10-18-2023 , 04:10 PM
Idk what happened at the West bank or anything about the situation in israe. If the Palestinians have been pushed back from the new settlers and it looks like they were, that could have upset them. They losing even more land. So they start an attack and hope they win with all their allies. idk that would be the other option of how anyone would benefit from this, at least hopes of benefiting. What do the Muslim world want? I think that is the bigger question. what the Palestinian want is secondary when they are ruled by outside forces which they are.
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10-18-2023 , 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Haywood
I got that. As I said previously, in the big casualty attack they probably did not anticipate that the munition would land in a courtyard full of people.

Israel has been flattening Gaza. They know they take the risk of large casualty events. But they are doing it anyway. They rely on the hasbara to clean up their image after disasters.

Here's a Guardian article that supports both our positions: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ocket-to-blame.
The beginning of the article suggests it was a Jihadi rocket, the first serious, independent account I've seen that supports that. But then the article goes on:
If the 5K could make it back and forth to the hospital they could have made it out of the war zone like most of their neighbors. With few exceptions they're sympathizers or hostiles.
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10-18-2023 , 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by washoe
Yeah except I don't think it was a bad decision. This was planned and executed by several actors for a long time imo. (iran, Hezbollah, possibility russia) if the reports about Wagner training Hamas are true then it would confirm it.
I think this benefits putin now very much. He's at a dead end in Ukraine for sure and this could be a way out.
How is this a way out? Ukraine is still going to get support from the united states. Russia's war will continue for the time being.

I think Israel is going to find member of Hamas across the globe and kill them.

If this expands to a larger global conflict like ww2 then the axis side will get destroyed.
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10-18-2023 , 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by washoe
I tell you what, where are the hostages? thats what I wanna know.
They'll likely be the next issue.

One thing Hamas learned from the hospital incident is that Iran/Hezbollah weren't waiting around for a catalyst to spark an attack, or worse, that help isn't coming. So the chief priority for Hamas is at least a temporary ceasefire to regroup, resupply, etc. and the hostages are pretty much all they have left to bargain with. A threat of executions unless a ceasefire likely won't work this time. So releasing the hostages in exchange for a temporary ceasefire might be in the works.
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10-18-2023 , 05:49 PM
The US defense has concluded it was Hamas that caused the deaths near the hospital. After seeing the validated evidence, instead of the ignorant, rush to judgement, media false reports, I agree with it.
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10-18-2023 , 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Victor
when Ukraine effs up and sends a missile into their own residents, we blame Russia for the invasion.

when Hamas effs up defending itself from the most clearcut genocide that has ever been broadcast in real time, we blame Hamas.

do I got that right?
The issue is (if it was them) that they tried to weaponize it to their advantage

Imo us armchair detectives shouldnt care about specifics cuz we'll be wrong and should just take it bigger picture cuz in the middle of a war we arent gunna find out the nitty grittty details
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10-18-2023 , 06:06 PM
In a press briefing on Wednesday morning, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, an Israeli military spokesman, said that Islamic Jihad fired 10 rockets at 6:59 p.m. local time. One of the rockets, he said, fell to earth prematurely, hitting a parking lot outside the hospital. He said that Israel had not fired any ordnance in the area of the hospital at that time.

He cited a photograph of the parking lot that was posted on social media on Wednesday morning that he said did not show the kind of impact that would have been caused by an Israeli missile.

The photo shows the effects of a fire — burned-out cars and scorched ground. Admiral Hagari said that the damage was caused by rocket fuel that caught fire after hitting the ground.

He also showed an aerial image that he said was taken from a military drone overnight. In the image, he said, there was no evidence of a crater caused by an Israeli missile.

And he dismissed suggestions that the strike was caused by an errant Israeli air defense interceptor; he said Israel does not fire air defense missiles into Gazan airspace.

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/18/w...l-in-gaza.html
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10-18-2023 , 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Pokerlogist
The US defense has concluded it was Hamas that caused the deaths near the hospital. After seeing the validated evidence, instead of the ignorant, rush to judgement, media false reports, I agree with it.
well, one thing the US gov and the Israeli gov do not ever do is lie
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10-18-2023 , 06:14 PM
That's a take I wasn't expecting to see

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10-18-2023 , 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by rafiki
That's a take I wasn't expecting to see

Insightful into the mindset. I hope for everyone's sake that they don't grossly miscalculate the reaction to executing hostages.
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10-18-2023 , 06:51 PM
This is a good take.



'To the United States, Israel is a policy instrument. The Israeli population doesn't matter to them, what matters to the Israeli population doesn't matter to them, the relationship with the United States has been incredibly detrimental to Israel, despite what everyone thinks, it has prevented Israel from becoming a normal society. Part of that is driven by diaspora Jews in the US, who like most diaspora communities are generally far more radical and ideological than their people back home. And this diaspora community in the west, particularly in the United States, makes a huge amount of money exploiting Jewish emotional attachment to Israel, getting them to fund pro-Israeli lobbies, which mostly just makes a handful of American Jews very rich. But it's mostly driven by US policy interests and the utility of Israel as a vehicle for an endless flow of cash to american defence companies, and as an offshore research and development hub. The US does not want and has never wanted for Israel to be at peace with their neighbours. They've never wanted Israel to integrate into the region.

They're using you, the Israelis. And it's absolutely against the interests of your people.'
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10-18-2023 , 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by wazz

They're using you, the Israelis. And it's absolutely against the interests of your people.'
As if there would have been an Israel or a modern West version were it not the US's strategic best interests. Same goes with Germany and Japan; they're our firewall against Russia and China. Guarantee plenty of our allies wish they were given half that consideration including our closest, the Brits.
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10-18-2023 , 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by John21
As if there would have been an Israel or a modern West version were it not the US's strategic best interests. Same goes with Germany and Japan; they're our firewall against Russia and China. Guarantee plenty of our allies wish they were given half that consideration including our closest, the Brits.
That might have been the case in the past, but it's not the case now. In the same way that the UK might have been overwhelmed by Germany in the 2nd world war had it not been for US assistance, but then we didn't just do everything they demanded of us in return in the period following (though they did impose their economic system on much of western europe in the postwar period as a condition of helping them rebuild).

In other words, whether or not Israel would exist without US support, it is not in the best interests of the Israeli people for the continuation of that support.
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10-18-2023 , 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by washoe
If they bombed it twice they must have Intel. maybe Hamas is faking it's own death?
maybe they just target civilians bc they are a terrorist apartheid state
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10-18-2023 , 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Victor
maybe they just target civilians bc they are a terrorist apartheid state
Yes. Hamas is all of those.
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10-18-2023 , 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by pocket_zeros
[I]In a press briefing on Wednesday morning, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari]
The problem with evidence from what Hamas said or what Israel said is that they would say the same thing either way. Israel will deny the hospital blast both if it did it or didn't do it. Same with Hamas.

We have film of the actual explosion. Somebody who knows about such things should weigh in on whether a Jihadi rocket could boom that big.

FYI, here is Channel 4 in Britain dissecting Hagari: https://twitter.com/i/status/1714779839826141381
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10-18-2023 , 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by wazz
In other words, whether or not Israel would exist without US support, it is not in the best interests of the Israeli people for the continuation of that support.
Fair enough. But that's like saying it would be in the best interest of Japan to break ties with the US, resurrect Hirohito and acquire a nuke. I don't agree in either case. Historically, things don't work out well for those that do. Shouldn't come as a surprise:


Quote:
Siege [and subsequent burning] of Atlanta
Letter of William T. Sherman to James M. Calhoun, E.E. Rawson, and S.C. Wells, September 12, 1864

Gentlemen,

I have your letter of the 11th, in the nature of a petition to revoke my orders removing all the inhabitants from Atlanta. I have read it carefully, and give full credit to your statements of the distress that will be occasioned, any yet shall not revoke my orders, because they were not designed to meet the humanities of the case, but to prepare for the future struggles in which millions of good people outside of Atlanta have a deep interest. We must have Peace, not only in Atlanta, but in All America. To secure this, we must stop the war that now desolates our once happy and favored country. To stop war, we must defeat the rebel armies which are now arrayed against the laws and Constitution that all must respect and obey. To defeat those armies, we must prepare the way to reach them in their recesses, provided with the arms and instruments which enable us to accomplish our purpose. Now I know the vindictive nature of our enemy, that we may have many years of military operations from this quarter; and, therefore, deem it wise and prudent to prepare in time. The use of Atlanta for warlike purposes is inconsistent with its character as a home for families. There will be no manufactures, commerce, or agriculture here, for the maintenance of families, and sooner or later want will compel the inhabitants to go. Why no go now, when all the arrangements are completed for the transfer, instead of waiting till the plunging shot of contending armies will renew the scenes of the past month? Of course, I do not apprehend any such thing at this moment, but you do not suppose this army will be here until the war is over. I cannot discuss this subject with you fairly, because I cannot impart to you what we propose to do, but I assert that our military plans make it necessary for the Inhabitants to go away, and I can only renew my offer of services to make their exodus in any direction as easy and comfortable as possible. You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our Country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to Secure Peace. But you cannot have Peace and a Division of our Country. If the United States submits to a Division now it will not stop, but will go on until we reap the fate of Mexico, which is Eternal War. The United States does and must assert its authority, wherever it once had power; for, if it relaxes one bit to pressure, it is gone, and I believe that such is the National Feeling. This Feeling assumes various shapes, but always comes back to that of Union. Once admit the Union, once more acknowledge the Authority of the National Government, and, instead of devoting your houses and streets and roads to the dread uses of war, I and this army become at once your protectors and supporters, shielding you from danger, let it come from what quarter it may. I know that a few individuals cannot resist a torrent of error and passion, such as swept the South into rebellion, but you can point out, so that we may know those who desire a government, and those who insist on war and its desolation.

You might as well appeal against the thunder-storm as against these terrible hardships of war. They are inevitable, and the only way the people of Atlanta can hope once more to live in peace and quiet at home, is to stop the war, which can only be done by admitting that it began in error and is perpetuated in pride. We don't want your negroes, or your horses, or your houses, or your hands, or any thing that you have, but we do want and will have a just obedience to the laws of the United States. That we will have, and, if it involves the destruction of your improvements, we cannot help it. You have heretofore read public sentiment in your newspapers, that live by falsehood and excitement; and the quicker you seek for truth in other quarters, the better.

I repeat then that, by the original compact of Government, the United States had certain rights in Georgia, which have never been relinquished and never will be; that the South began war by seizing forts, arsenals, mints, custom-houses, etc., etc., long before Mr. Lincoln was installed, and before the South had one jot or title of provocation. I myself have seen in Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Mississippi, hundreds of thousands of women and children fleeing from your armies and desperadoes, hungry and with bleeding feet. In Memphis, Vicksburg, and Mississippi, we fed thousands upon thousands of families of rebel soldiers left in our hands, and whom we could not see starve. Now that war comes home to you, you feel very different. You depreciate its horrors, but did not feel them when you sent car-loads of soldiers and ammunition, and moulded shells and shot, to carry war into Kentucky and Tennessee, to desolate the homes of hundreds of thousands of good people who only asked to live in peace at their old homes, and under the Government of their inheritance. But these comparisons are idle. I want peace, and believe it (can) only be reached through union and war, and I will ever conduct war with a view to perfect and early success.

But my dear sirs when Peace does come, you may call on me for any thing-Then I will share with you the last cracker, and watch with you to shield your homes and families against danger from every quarter.

Now you must go, and take with you the old and feeble, feed and nurse them, and build for them, in more quiet places, proper habitations to shield them against the (wea)ther until the mad passions of men cool down, and allow the Union and (pe)ace once more to settle over your old homes at Atlanta. Yrs., in haste,
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10-18-2023 , 10:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Haywood
The problem with evidence from what Hamas said or what Israel said is that they would say the same thing either way. Israel will deny the hospital blast both if it did it or didn't do it. Same with Hamas.
I had the suggestion in the Ukraine/russia thread that as a group of poker players we should be illuminating the GTO or equilibrium observations. I think here for example it might be helpful to view the hospital event as 'collateral damage' from 'our' view, if its not very clear what happened (I don't have an opinion I'm still catching up)
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10-18-2023 , 10:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wazz
This is a good take.



'To the United States, Israel is a policy instrument. The Israeli population doesn't matter to them, what matters to the Israeli population doesn't matter to them, the relationship with the United States has been incredibly detrimental to Israel, despite what everyone thinks, it has prevented Israel from becoming a normal society. Part of that is driven by diaspora Jews in the US, who like most diaspora communities are generally far more radical and ideological than their people back home. And this diaspora community in the west, particularly in the United States, makes a huge amount of money exploiting Jewish emotional attachment to Israel, getting them to fund pro-Israeli lobbies, which mostly just makes a handful of American Jews very rich. But it's mostly driven by US policy interests and the utility of Israel as a vehicle for an endless flow of cash to american defence companies, and as an offshore research and development hub. The US does not want and has never wanted for Israel to be at peace with their neighbours. They've never wanted Israel to integrate into the region.

They're using you, the Israelis. And it's absolutely against the interests of your people.'
Claiming that there is a radical Jewish diaspora community in the US influencing foreign policy and that is why none of Israel’s neighbors will recognize them is certainly a take.
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10-18-2023 , 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Dunyain
Yes. Hamas is all of those.
Hamas that has been openly funded by Israel for years?
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10-18-2023 , 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Metod Tinuviel
Claiming that there is a radical Jewish diaspora community in the US influencing foreign policy and that is why none of Israel’s neighbors will recognize them is certainly a take.
Maybe Hitler was right all along and the US is under the influence of the Jews? It's interesting how the takes from the far left and far right often converge on topics like this.
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10-18-2023 , 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Haywood
The problem with evidence from what Hamas said or what Israel said is that they would say the same thing either way. Israel will deny the hospital blast both if it did it or didn't do it. Same with Hamas.

We have film of the actual explosion. Somebody who knows about such things should weigh in on whether a Jihadi rocket could boom that big.

FYI, here is Channel 4 in Britain dissecting Hagari: https://twitter.com/i/status/1714779839826141381
Obviously, like the entire Arab world and progressive left you went into this taking Hamas at their word and deciding Israel intentionally dropped a bomb on a hospital. And it is only after realizing none of the evidence supports your beliefs that you are shifting goalposts and declaring there is no way to know because both sides are bad actors. If there was any actual evidence to support your a priori you would be running with it full speed and there would be no doubt at all.
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10-18-2023 , 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by campfirewest
Maybe Hitler was right all along and the US is under the influence of the Jews? It's interesting how the takes from the far left and far right often converge on topics like this.
I hope I have done enough white knighting of Israel and the Jews that I am not going to be accused of antisemitism for this. It is just my opinion from a lot of personal observation and reading of people much more intelligent and with better penetration than myself.

But IMO what I think is going on is that the far left, far right, and especially the Muslim far right strive for order and conformity. They want to conserve what is, and squash all individuality into the collective whole. The literal translation of Islam is "submission" so that doesn't really leave any doubt. Basically it is the opposite of liberalism and individuality.

Jews on the other hand are culturally extremely individual and liberal, agents of chaos and progress and innovation. Everything Jews represent are anathema to the far right and the totalitarian left.
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10-18-2023 , 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by campfirewest
Maybe Hitler was right all along and the US is under the influence of the Jews? It's interesting how the takes from the far left and far right often converge on topics like this.
it doesnt converge tho. the far left despises apartheid. the mainstream Western media and political establishment promotes and normalizes it. look at South Africa.
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10-18-2023 , 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Dunyain
Obviously, like the entire Arab world and progressive left you went into this taking Hamas at their word and deciding Israel intentionally dropped a bomb on a hospital. And it is only after realizing none of the evidence supports your beliefs that you are shifting goalposts and declaring there is no way to know because both sides are bad actors. If there was any actual evidence to support your a priori you would be running with it full speed and there would be no doubt at all.
instead of murdering 4k in the week, they only killed 3k! checkmate socialists. Israelis are confirmed good!

Last edited by Victor; 10-18-2023 at 11:58 PM. Reason: but we all know Israel killed those people at the hospital. bc thats what they do.
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