Maybe, but I can only go by their own actions, and the actions Israel has taken against them. Even if I were to take the most charitable interpretation of their requests and demands and the assurance that they'd honor it all in good faith, their reckless endangerment in itself that they've placed on their own people alone is worthy of condemnation and warrants their removal as a leadership - preferablly, peacefully through their own govt. But again, I don't think Hamas is just this miscalculated and this awful at achieving these goals.

Yes. I wouldn't walk into some old dude's house party today and shoot him because he fought in the Six Day War.

But could you expand on how many of the 1,200 you think were ex military and what that means for starting a war.

Simply put, I honestly can't imagine that Hamas is shocked by Israel's response to the oct 7th attack. If this was the preferred outcome for a group of freedom fighters, you're a pretty shitty military organization.

I don’t think you know what innocent means. You think kids have the same innocence as ex soldiers? How do you think that

How many of the 1200 were ex military? Prob 50-80%?

What that means for starting a war? Sorry I don’t follow. What war was started and when?

This is a good video from an Israeli that touches on this idea

Yes.


The part of the war that has killed about 3-5x as many people in the last year than has died in the last 35 years combined.

You’re saying they started part of a war ?

But they didn’t start the war on Oct 7?

Maybe you don’t know much about soldiers and training either if you think children have the same amount of innocence as professional soldiers


Or perhaps you’re lying?

It's not really a military organization, it's a political organization served by military wing called the Al-Qassam Brigades. Palestine has no army in itself, all its armed militias serve a political / ideological faction.

So assume a US without a military. An equivalent to Hamas and the Al-Qassam Brigades would be something like MAGA having its own milita powerful enough to subdue local populations and seize power in half the country. The actions of the military wing doesn't always reflect its own strategic goals, it can also reflect the political goals of the parent organization.

Nor are they freedom fighters in any meaningful interpretation of the term, which is why assessing their acts under that lens will always make them seem bizarre. At best you could argue that the hopeless situation of Palestine causes support for extremist organizations, but this still does not make them freedom fighters.

And no, they're not shocked by Israel's response. The leaders of Hamas might be callous and willing to order atrocities, but they're not stupid. Their gamble is that all in all they will grow in power and influence based on the initial atrocities and Israel's predictable response, to them the deaths along the way is just the price of that gamble.

freedom fighters are only approved and armed by the Imperialist West. like the brave Mujahideen of Afghanistan or the "moderate ISIS mercenaries" in Syria.

Why do the rest of you even entertain this clownish position?

The idea that Hamas is justified to surprise attack a music festival and execute a bunch of unarmed 25 year olds because they were conscripts 3 years ago is such a stupid, morally vacant position it really isn't worth addressing at all.

They call themselves a military and they have ranks like commander general infantry etc. Just because they are inept at fighting that doesn't mean Israel is immoral for responding militarily to their invasion. Which is what 10/7 was, it was an invasion by a hostile neighbors military force. Whether people want to call them freedom fighters, militia, military, or "hopeless extremists" what they did on 10/7 was breach a border and go and target almost exclusively civilians.

This would be entirely different if they went and only attacked military targets or went and tried to seize the capitol/government administrations. Instead they passed military bases and targeted neighborhoods on a very important Jewish holiday where Jews were not on their phones/watching the news as per the custom, slaughtering animals, old ppl, women, kids(yes they did not behead 40 babies. Yes they did behead two though. TWO. They also put an infant in an oven. They also slaughtered parents in front of their kids then kidnapped them, or killed them in some instances). They raped many women as evidenced in the go pro footage Hamas took that day. You can see women with large amounts of blood around those areas. They mutilated some for funsies. When they returned there was a parade with "civilians" getting a chance to throw a punch or grab a hostage. Cheering, throwing candy to the kids, "allahu akbar" being screamed over and over. This is Islamic extremism, funded by the IRGC, that if they defeat Israel they are coming here next.

They couldn't help themselves and also went and slaughtered people at a music festival. Many weren't even Israeli or Jewish. Some were Asian. Some were even Muslims that they view as traitors. Hamas weren't the only people who invaded that day. Many "civilians" joined in the activities and went and kidnapped their own woman when they saw the opportunity. This is why Hamas hasn't been able to give accurate details or proof of life for all hostages as they legitimately dont know where they all are.

Whatever you want to call the people who participated in this doesnt really matter at the end of the day, they deserve zero mercy and its sickening how many people only learned of this conflict after this mass murder spree, and they sided with the perpetrators???? These are the same people who consider words "violence", but the cold brutal killing and kidnapping of true innocence they can rationalize as justified???? There is something seriously wrong with academia as this is the bulk of where the support is coming from. The billions of dollars from Qatar into the University system obviously has played a significant role in this.

Us Jews know that this did not start on 10/7. This current conflict certainly did, but this is the result of a society that is plagued by hate with zero accountability where they truly value death over life. Its not just an expression its reality that they hate us more than they love themselves. Ive spent the last 11 months arguing almost daily in live debates on social media over this and its fully consumed me tbh. Its a pointless endeavor which Ive known since the start, but as someone who lost family members on 10/7 and lost family members during the 2nd intifada and lost family members in '72 and '67 and '48 and the holocaust, its atrocious watching people side with the other side. There is zero justification for supporting them in my opinion. They do not deserve any support. They are solely responsible for the situation they are in. They could end it today if they wanted to. Israel cannot end it today and will never surrender first as when has the stronger side ever done that? Its nonsensical. We spent thousands of years as 2nd and 3rd class citizens being treated infinitely worst than the Palestinians are treated by Israel, we never did anything remotely close to that. We went about it the right way and went thru the proper channels for establishing a country. They still to this day have not even begun the process for self governance.

The Palestinian people were already "free". "Free Palestine" is a farce that is looking outward for problems that are fully self created. In 2005 Israel fully withdrew from Gaza and brought ever Jew even the dead out of there. But they set the stage for free and fair elections. Palestinians exercised their self determination and they voted for Hamas. It is in no way our fault that Hamas is on the 19th yr of their 4yr term. But these dimwits are incapable of taking any accountability for anything they do. They blame the Jews and Israel and actually support Hamas, so what can we do besides try and minimize our exposure to their truly genocidal ambitions? They have committed hundreds of suicide bombings prior to 10/7 all on civilian targets like markets, busses, stadiums, schools. This is why there are checkpoints. No suicide bombers no checkpoints. Dont blame the checkpoints blame the radicals thinking suicide bombing can fix their problem. They fire thousands of rockets every yr. Another reason for checkpoints. There are hundreds of stabbings committed by Palestinians against Israelis every year, and like the rocket fire these happen at supposed "peacetime". They have started a half dozen conflicts, theyve lost them all, and yet we still gave them land they had autonomous control over as a peace offering. They have set themselves back decades. They have lost Gaza. Gaza will become Israel again after this. Now they are starting to increase the violence in Judea and Samaria, this will not end well for them.

Sorry for my rant. It truly pisses me off to see what Im assuming are educated people actually supporting people who represent values that are antithetical to everything the west is about. If Mexico decided that California should still be part of Mexico and want to renig on the Mexico-American War treaty so they invade the US, slaughter thousands of people and take hostages, would you be siding with Mexico or would you be supporting the US in getting the hostages and eliminating the people who did this? How do you think the US would go about it?

orly?

I have no idea how you read my post to be in support of Hamas.

He also thinks (or at least though, hoping he's changed his mind) all kibbutzes are military installations because he read about a few kibbutzes producing military equipment. He's maintained this position despite having people with first had experience tell him that is wrong.




The lack of understanding about the Mujahideen is always hilarious to read.





The military wing is extremely removed from the political wing of Hamas. This is why I still think it's best to legitimize the political wing on the condition that they recognize Israel's right to exist.






In actual news, this is wild:




https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/12/u...a-weapons.html

Israeli Commandos Carried Out Raid on Secret Weapons Site in Syria

they also bombed a girls school and killed 3 kids in Syria. its cool when we do it tho.

oh wait, that was in Yemen. who can keep track any more? its just war crimes all the way down.

The UN, which is wholly biased against Israel that is abundantly clear, even stated that there was rape and sexual violence on 10/7. Hamas filmed all of it. The go pro footage has been reviewed and determined there was rape. No they do not need to publish rape. Wanting to see proof of that it to believe it is unnecessary and pretty weird. You can see in the videos put out that women have large amounts of blood on those parts of their body. These are also people who have a long established history of sexual violence in war.

Whats funny is the only people denying that there was rape are the people who immediately believed the story that Palestinian woman was raped during the Al Shifa hospital operation and immediately published it on all platforms. Then even Al Jazeera had to pull the story because the woman told them that she made it up because she wanted to help the Gazans in the war. Yet none of these Islamists issued a retraction and many still believe it happened to this day, even blowing it out of proportion from the one womans false story into it being a widespread occurrence.

I think what it boils down to is leftists have hijacked the Palestinian cause and put all of their own grievances into the conflict and made it about themselves. They are fully detached from reality and look at the actions of Palestinians thru the lens of what their personal actions would be, and look at the actions of Israel as the "establishment"/capitalist elite/white supremacists despite next to nothing being true about this association. This is really the only way I can logically see how ppl like you land at the conclusions you do and it not simply being a deep hatred for Jews.

How many dead on 9/11 voted for people who strengthened our alliance with Israel and Saudi Arabia? Slippery slope, dude.

But no war crime for storing rocket systems/munitions/weapons or command posts in said schools, right?

Ill ignore the obvious tell of you going from ex military to professional soldiers bur you can serve as a nurse or a microbiologist amongst other things and that obviously doesnt include being forced to served or a whole host of other **** like what you are fighting against - which i know you understand.

But again, yes

It was more directed at you saying they werent military. Then I went off on my tangent of my overall opinion of 10/7 and the war as a whole. My apologies.

Right? Especially when every single Israeli(except the Arabs, how cruel of us!!!! And the ultra orthodox but thats an entirely separate issue that is being fixed) are conscripted to serve of course they aren't all going to be engaging in combat. There are thousands in the IDF that even during war will never do anything combat or violence related. They have to do their civil service so they are technically part of the IDF, but a 10 year old Palestinian throwing rocks is more involved in the fight than an IDF who is doing data analysis or janitorial work.

Right, no worries. This is heated subject. I was referring to Hamas being the political organization, and they are served by the Al-Qassam Brigades. I don't think that takes away any moral responsibility from either.

People and media tend to conflate the two, which is fine. The distinction is not always needed. However, sometimes it is important, especially when trying to understand motivations behind attacks and terrorist acts, or when trying to analyze capabilities and capacities. The level of control is also not absolute, so that matters a lot for ceasefire talks.

bruv, find me the UN report that says they found any footage. bc this is what I have found.

Patten report:



subsequent investigation https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/...c-56-crp-3.pdf





weird that there is all this video footage but the UN didnt see any of it.

This is a really good point that doesn’t get talked about enough. Most IDF soldiers are just following orders.

Internal Israeli opponents of Netanyahu, including military and security officers, are arguing that most of the weapons Hamas gets are smuggled in over land, and the tunnel network into Egypt is not that important. And that holding the border to Egypt is going to cause Israel more problems than it will solve.

I of course dont know if this is true or not, and neither does anyone else posting in this thread. But interesting.

In other news the IRI is flooding the West Bank with small arms right now to add to the violent unrest. And it is of course working. At some point we have to address how the IRI has been very successful in playing the Arabs like drums, using them as cannon fodder in its war against Israel, destabilizing the entire Arab world. And how disastrous the US appeasement of IRI starting with Obama has been.