Is this what they teach actually schoolchildren in the UK?

So Oct 7th was justified then, correct? I mean that’s the logical conclusion you are laying out, why not just say it

military attacks are justified, legal, and moral. more should have been done to protect civilians imo however.

I'm familiar w/ the history of course. I lived through it.

So basically you're blaming the break-down of the Oslo accords on Israel?

Not to my knowledge. Why?

Such a case can be made. The Israelis failed to make the scheduled withdrawals in the West Bank, and of course they never meant to, as Rabin privately admitted.

Yes. Israel refused to end the military occupation of the West Bank. Area C (familiar?), the region of Israeli military controlled settlements snakes in and around Palestinian areas (A&B) of the WB. Palestine is divided into 165 compartments by Area C and people have to go through checkpoints to pass between them.

When Rabin asked the Knesset to ratify Oslo he specified, and this is a quote, that they were offering the PLO something "less than a state."

exactly, military attacks are justified, legal, and moral. Now we just have to determine

a) was oct 7th a military attack and if so was it done in accordance with international law
a1) possible violations include sexual assault, disguising combatants in civilian clothing, murdering innocent civilians, capturing civilians as hostages
a2) possible objection is that it was not a military attack but rather an act of terrorism

b) are Israel’s actions the ones that can actually be considered justified, legal, and moral, and if so why are you condemning their actions when you don’t have an inherent objection to wars or civilian casualties?

Ya, got it.

Like I said, I lived through this period, and I actually remember the headlines at the time. I'm trying to find and gather as many of these articles as I can, but Israel did change course, with good reason. They did because...

.... they were bombarded by Islamic terrorist attacks.

https://1997-2001.state.gov/global/t...rt/middle.html

I'll quote some of it here, but I remember this period quite well.

Spectacular and horrific bombings in Dhahran, Tel Aviv, and Jerusalem dominated terrorist incidents in the Middle East in 1996, and nearly doubled the number of terrorist casualties to 837 from 445 in 1995. The truck bombing of the residential building occupied by US military personnel participating in the Joint Task Force/Southwest Asia near Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, on 25 June killed 19 US citizens and wounded over 500 persons. Several groups claimed responsibility, and the Federal Bureau of Investigation and Saudi Government continue their investigations into the incident.

In Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, suicide bombs in February and March killed 65 persons, including three US citizens. The radical Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) was responsible for three of the bombings, and HAMAS and the Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ) both claimed responsibility for a fourth.

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9602/israel...sion/02-25/pm/


Look... can you at the very least acknowledge this is a complex chicken/egg argument? We have to use multiple levels of reasoning to parse out what's going on, no?

The Oslo accord broke down because in ~3 month period from what I remember, there were major terrorist attacks, by Islamic extremist in Israel. That moved public sentiment away from continuing on. The primary reason that Israel has occupied the west bank at all, is BECAUSE it fears for it's security, and that Hamas and other groups will be even closer to Israel to launch attacks.

Now... we can argue back and forth whether that's justified, but can you at least acknowledge that's a legit fear?

Second level reasoning:

In this last 25+ years, who's responsible for most of the global terrorism? Is it Israeli Zionist? or Islamic extremist?

Next level:
Who broke all the cease fires since 2000? Israel or Palestine?

Next:
Which group supports democracy, including right for women, gays, and religious autonomy?

Next:
What does "from the river to the sea mean"?


I could go on... but you need to piece this all together like a puzzle. We're talking about 15 million Jews (7 million in Israel), vs 2 billion Muslims (5 mill in Palestine). It seems like a bit of a stretch to claim Muslims are somehow the victims only. Not to mention, the population in Palestine has grown at a higher rate than the average world population has. I've never heard of a population growing during a genocide, have you?

The response to Islamic terror was to break agreements with the moderates? That makes no sense. If the Palestinian Authority could deliver a life free of occupation they'd be a credible force again. The reneging on Oslo shifted initiative away from the moderates and into the hands of Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

Then why the settlements? Why not just bases? Occupation propels Palestinian resistance. Why Israeli-only roads, Israeli-only neighborhoods, Israeli-only water? Why forbid West Bank Palestinians from even collecting rain water for their gardens? Why separate legal systems for Israelis and Palestinians in the WB? It's been about expansion since 1900.

The Israeli apartheid system is a far greater example of violence and it ain't even close. Who fills the prison camps? Who is chopping the hands off detainees after the handcuffs are left on so long they cause gangrene? An Israeli surgeon told Haaretz that was "routine." Cite upstream somewhere.

Yeah, the Arabs said if the partition plan went fwd they were going to kick the Jewish communities out of their countries, they didn't wake up randomly one morning and decide to do it.

You know that so why do you frame it differently?

From your post: "The Arab Higher Committee, the Arab League and other Arab leaders and governments rejected it on the basis that Arabs formed a two-thirds majority and owned a majority of the lands."
It doesn't seem unreasonable that they would disagree with the proposal but the Zionists conquered the land fair and square, it was not given to them in the end.

I remember quite clearly, the suicide bombings that went on at that time. According to all reports, that drastically shifted Israeli sentiment around the Oslo agreement. They rightfully already had apprehension before hand, and that just finalized it.

They are guarded. And I've never denied it a mess on the WB. But acting like this is all happening by accident, and that Israel wants all of Palestine, when literally the opposite is true, is truly Orwellian.


Claiming apartheid here is just absurd, and disrespectful to people who have actually lived through apartheid.

You do realize there's Palestinian Muslims that live peacefully inside Israel alongside Jews right? Where is that happening in Palestine w/ Jews?

You guys have really drank the Kool-aide. Those poor Palestinian suicide bombers... if only someone would give them a chance? I'm sure the other 2 billion Muslims will help out their brothers in Palestine though, right? I mean, Jews help Israelis.


Can you at least acknowledge, Israeli's have some justification for being upset as well... and you don't see them videoing beheading of civilians, do you? Or maybe you are just in the camp that Israel is 100% in the wrong here.

The day they said their intention was to drive Israel into the sea and kill all Jews.

Hamas has zero intention of peace. They've said this, and they have said many times over (and I've presented many videos and their documents) that say exactly that.
https://www.adl.org/resources/news/a...ected-excerpts

Israeli can't be an occupier in their own land.

This isn't a border dispute.

If Hamas TRULY wanted peace, and a fair border solution, they wouldn't have initiated terrorist attacks during the Oslo accord.

I asked him when, and why, he had decided to volunteer for martyrdom.
“In the spring of 1993, I began to pester our military leaders to let me do
an operation,” he said. “It was around the time of the Oslo accords, and it
was quiet, too quiet. I wanted to do an operation that would incite others
to do the same. Finally, I was given the green light to leave Gaza for an
operation inside Israel.”
—Nasra Hassan

The strategy was to strike fear into moderates in Israel, who said many times over, they wanted a settlement. The intention of Hamas terrorist attacks in the mid 90's was to scare moderates into voting out Labour Party leaders, and bring in more conservative, strong arm leaders, as they knew conservatives would never offer peace.

And here we are... Netanyahu has done nothing but stoke this fire, and Hamas is smiling and running a successful propaganda war.

Meanwhile, western democracy is losing.

Hmmm weird. I heard differently.

At least you guys are on the same side as Putin:
https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/202...cnni-world.cnn

I mean, he's only literally in the middle of an illegal invasion of Ukraine. No hypocrisy there.

I'm sure he would be on the right side of history though, as he usually is... while he's undermining western democracy all over the world.

The moderates in israel wanted a settlement and they got many settlements.

On the subject of terrorism, no mention yet of Baruch Goldstein. I think it’s incorrect to avoid mentioning terrorist acts committed by israelis if you are going to weight deaths caused by terrorism as more severe than deaths caused by state violence.

Source for your claim?

Ya... ty for pointing out Barauch. You have to go back to the 90's to find extreme acts of violence by Israeli's. Whereas there's terrorism happening all over the world by Muslim extremist far too often and recent. Do you want to dispute that?


Look... this isn't intellectually difficult to understand.

You can condemn Israel for occupation of the WB. But please do so acknowledging they left Gaza in 2005.

And at the same time you can condemn Hamas for the brutality of 10/7.

But you lose the morality argument if you try and point to land disputes as justification for 10/7.

holy ****

I mean, I guess it makes sense. it shows how little Palestinian (and Lebanese) life matters to many Israel supporters.

It's the explicit objective. Victor just showed you Netanyahu's river to the sea map. What do you think the settlements are for? They built them to later abandon them? And this project was STARTED by Labor. And remember Rabin said Oslo did not include a Palestinian state.

The West Bank is under apartheid. There's an elaborate pass system allowing Palestinians to only go certain places on certain roads. The water systems are separate. Palestinians can't vote for the government that exercises sovereignty. The roads are segregated, as are schools and neighborhoods. There are separate legal systems: Israelis are under civil law and have civil rights protections. The Palestinians go before military tribunals. WB is much worse than South Africa, and South Africans say so.

This shows something different than you realize. It shows that when Arabs don't have their land stolen and aren't hounded by military patrols, they get along with Jews pretty well.

What acts were committed by Palestinians? You have to go back decades for international incidents. ISIS isn't Palestinian, the 9/11 bombers were Saudis. Hamas attacks on Israeli civilians are lamentable, but they've been overwhelmingly confined to the Levant. Look elsewhere for global terrorists.

No, the IDF withdrew to the perimeter. Gazans are still locked in, not allowed to have an airport or cross the border. Long before 10/7 Israel was restricting all kinds of goods from going in because they control the border. Gazans weren't allowed to fish more than three miles out -- that was before the entire fishing fleet was destroyed.

Who here has said attacks on Israeli civilians were justified?

Read Hamas charter. You can find it online. I've already posted countless videos and links from their leaders, point blank saying the goal is never peace. It's to erradicate the Jews.

You're talking about Section C of the WB, which is under Israeli control, and hence Israeli law. Have you been there? Is it possible you may not be getting all the correct info?

Section A and B are under Palestinian control, and that's where 98% of Palestinians live.

Calling it apartheid is beyond absurd. You lose major reasoning points there. I understand there are international opinions on this. The internation community has not proven too kind or fair to the Jews in their history.


Explain again how you steal land that is indigenous to your people for over 4k years? Again, during the Arab expulsion, Jews fled there. They also fled to the area as refugees from Europe after surviving a holocaust... AN ACTUAL REAL HOLOCAUST, where they did live under apartheid for many years.

Let's put on the thinking caps again... do you think people who lived under that recent trauma, would be OK with committing those same atrocities to other people?

You can google polls about how many Palestinians support Hamas. Spoiler... it's most of them (65%+).

Don't convolute my point. Muslim extremism is responsible for nearly all the modern worlds terrorist attacks.