its so funny how all of their arguments have been thoroughly debunked at this point

Nowhere did I justify anything. I’m explaining how each side justifies its own violence which in turn is used by the other side to justify their own violence. I’m describing cause and effect.

Yes, very much this. Simple and eloquent.

I'd even go further and state that the far-right idiots that now make up much of Israel's government and the morons of Hamas exist in a perverse symbiosis where they feed and grow stronger of each-other, because their actions lead to self-fulfilling prophecies. This negative spiral might seem like some kin of victory to their inner circle, even if it is anything but.

There is of course also the point that neither Hamas nor Israel's current government were nor are particularly good at accomplishing their stated goals, but that is perhaps a matter for its own discussion.

It also makes it tricky to discuss Israel policy, because "what should they do now" is in many ways a result of having painted themselves into a corner and being left with very few alternatives.

As for the path forward, there isn't really much to hope for at this point. At the very best one might in the short term achieve an unstable, violent and unpopular peace that Israeli nationalists and Hamas will argue is a horrible mistake and use to campaign politically.

Indeed. It's a vicious cycle and it's hard to see anyway out now Netanyahu has gone so far.

As the joke contains a very wise idea says, the way forward is to start from somewhere else.

Israel should follow international law and end the occupation and pay reparations. they should also stop doing terrorism and torture.

What should Hamas do?

nothing. they arent violating international law and doing apartheid and doing plausible genocide and torture. if they start to do that, then we can talk.

These IDF torture camps make Abu Ghraib look like Sunday school, how do you manage to have 60 prisoners die in custody? Straight-up don't gaf if their crimes get exposed.

Islamic , arab-nationalistic terrorism against Israel in the area gets it's "moral" justification from the purported Nakba and purported illegal occupation of the territories.

Nothing Israel does or doesn't do matters much given that, there would be a lot of terrorism no matter Israeli actions, until Israel exists.

That's obvious, there is no causal "Israel is creating terrorism" mechanism, except if you mean "the EXISTENCE ITSELF OF ISRAEL begets terrorism", which is what has been going on for many decades.

This automatically makes the matter very clear on Israel side, at least now, after decades of hoping it wasn't the case: there is no way to eliminate terrorism until every group with claims of palestinian sovereignty is allowed to exist and flourish in the area.

incidentally, can someone explain why Israeli jets doing repeated sonic booms over Beirut is somehow "defending itself" or "fighting Hamas" and not terrorism?

Because Lebanon has been attacking Israel for almost a year straight, and their client patron Iran has been also, directly and through other proxies. So Israel is showing that it is willing to defend itself if Lebanon keeps up the aggression.

Of course between PLO and Hezbollah destroying the country, Lebanon itself is more or less a failed state, so probably should just call them Hezbollah, and drop the pretense there is really such a thing as Lebanon anymore.

Oh boy.

that doesnt answer the question. what is the point of doing sonic booms over a city? how does that help defend Israel or hurt Hamas or Hezbollah?

You’re again missing the part where Nakba is going to appeal to a far smaller group of people if their neighbors aren’t playing a big part in the negatives of their lives, one of those negatives being settlements. There’s nothing purported about that. Basically every halfway sane government in the world is critical of them and considers them illegal. And yes, of course Palestinian governments bear blame as well for the conditions of Palestinians.

Hitlers message was appealing (partially) because of the state of Germany at the time. It’s a lot less appealing today. It’s not hard to imagine a very different outcome if the allies had kept their boot on the necks of the Germans for generations.

It’s really not hard to understand. Difficult living conditions breed extremism. That’s true just about everywhere. I mean, you don’t have a problem understanding that things like Oct 7 make harsher actions from the Israeli government more appealing to Israelis. It works exactly the same in the other direction.

Agreed. Oct 7 and everything after has probably set things back decades.

Some posters are becoming increasingly erratic and nonsensical as Hamas’ grip on Gaza deteriorates. It must be a mind **** seeing all your heroes getting taken out by the IDF. Don’t worry there’s still Hamas boys hiding underground like rats.

Lol yup. This is the “reality” some people are living in. Wild stuff.

Israel has been assassinating Palestinian leaders since it became a state. but maybe this time it will work!

Maybe it will. If it doesn’t, the world is still an infinitely better place with them dead. Either way, Israel is going to keep eliminating them as they’re quite proficient at it. Hamas will try to rebuild, but they are rapidly losing experienced leaders and fighters. The inexperienced rabble of angry young men that replace them will not be the same pre-Oct 7 Hamas that was full of battle hardened vets.

I have plenty of criticisms of Israel but to watch Victor pretend Hamas is not at all a terrorist organization that kills civilians is hard on the brain.

Hope he's okay.

That's one way to describe a massacre of children.

It certainly has. The brutality of Hamas' terrorist attacks is not surprising for those that actually knew anything about the organization either. A self-installed dictatorship with a private army and a history of terrorism isn't exactly much grounds for hope.

But the loss of future options started before Oct 7 as well. What Israel has been doing in Gaza and its borders was pretty much gone to the point of ethnic cleansing.

blaming the victims. typical Western behavior.

It’s also one way to describe the destruction of a horrific terrorist organization’s ability to exact terror in the region. I’m realistic about what is happening. Israel’s actions have terrible and unfortunate consequences, including further radicalizing an already hyper radicalized population. The IDF have not been without fault, but pretending like Hamas doesn’t bear the brunt of the blame for beginning this current conflict is beyond delusional.