In terms of useful conversations, I've noticed a lot of overlap between "don't help Ukraine" and "don't get involved in Israel". The whole America first thing (which I guess is oversimplifying it as here there are other factors to not want to be involved).

There's also this concept of China, Russia, Iran sort of all being one big muddled pile assisting each other (and consequently supporting the PA).

I honestly think that over enough time, history will prove out that those 3 were just net-negatives for the planet in our time. Be it democracy (and their own people), climate change, war, etc. Their people aren't bad, but their decision makers largely are. Their desire to destabilize the globe is obvious. Iran is THE reason this conflict still exists, and I'm happy to discuss this exact point any time. They are the bank for war in the region.

So when these big conflicts happen and everyone wants to stay away, it really reminds me of pre-WW2 appeasement, and we know how that played out. Churchill got that bang on there, and I think Biden has it bang on with Ukraine.

So the people who don't want to see the USA help one of their only true allies in the middle-east, I get why you're saying that. But when we'll zoom way way out in time one day, I don't think that's going to be the side that made sense. We'll see.

Israel has historically sold India a lot of military technology. But there is no commitment for the future. In a future multipolar world I dont think it is accurate to assume India would support Israel in any capacity.

i mean..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India%...ar%20of%201999.

It's not hard to understand why you'd pick India when on the other side you have Pakistan.

The stories of the stuff they've done over the years has been amazing. Things like

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/47209840.cms


India gets a ton of training from the IDF too.

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/in...e-units-513820

These two nations are very close.

I don’t think many people dispute that Palestinians have suffered more than Israelis over that time period. The problem is Hamas’ actions are just going to make things worse for the average Palestinian (as well as just being completely horrific). This isn’t intended to excuse the Israeli government at all. It’s just a horrible grim mess.

In the last decade we've seen historic diplomacy and economic/trade changes in the region though. Things I never thought I'd see in my lifetime.

I'm not surprised by this

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...on-2023-10-08/

Because the groundbreaking relationships between the two countries has been astonishing.

These sorts of stories have been coming out all over the last ten years. Truly historic

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...ns-2023-04-03/

I dont think any past closeness is anything Israel should rely on moving forward. As it is showing with its relationship with Russia, India is going to do what is best for India and not get bogged down by commitments to the US and its allies.

What's already set though is support from the average Indian person. Check X, most of the non-Jewish support comes from Indian posters. It always blows me away.

Yea yea, Don't get your hopes up tho.
India will do anything that helps them, which is the same that helps China and Russia. They do have a lot of Muslims, which is why they understand terrorism. But beyond that, you cant count on nothing.

PW,
Do you think Israel would rather have a prosperous, successful Palestine as a neighbor or they like the current status quo?

I love the question and I used to ask it the way you're asking it here and feel pretty good about myself.

The issue of course is that Israel ALSO has extremists, largely due to the never ending cycle of violence. And they've made the moral high ground very hard to stake a claim to.

So I'll rephrase your question if you'll permit

"Do you think the AVERAGE Israeli would rather have a prosperous....."

And of course, the answer is yes. The average Israeli wants an end to it, peace, and they don't care if Gaza is self-determined by Palestinians, and thrives. That's great and would be ideal.

I don't agree with Kelhus very often, but it's hard to argue with his general proposition that there is plenty of government culpability on all sides when it comes to this long standing conflict.

Shia/Sunni split is gone, America is far away and are overextended, Europe is broke, and now even Haaretz is holding Netanyahu responsible for this mess.

Maybe it's time for a settlement, whoever manages to pull it off and give both sides guarantees is going to gain a **** ton on many levels. Either this or the Zionist suicidal doomers prevail. I'm leaning A.

From very far away I view Gaza and the west bank as different situations. Some of those settlers seem like some wacky fundamentalists that I get the feeling even the Israeli govt has a hard time controlling. Not a great look and you're right, opens the country up to unneeded criticisms. Don't follow it closely though so not sure if there have been some reforms to reign it in the last few years.

I can't see Israel not getting their pound of flesh first unfortunately.

One of Hamas's goals almost certainly was to make it impossible domestically for Saudi Arabia and Israel to continue discussions about normalizing relations.

https://apnews.com/article/eu-palest...e131a8c6abb552

European Union ‘immediately’ suspends hundreds of millions in aid for Palestinian authorities



https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20...-hamas-attack/


Austria and Germany said, on Monday, they were suspending aid worth tens of millions of Euros to Palestinians in response to the group, Hamas’s deadly attack on Israel

The speed of the change in sentiment is breathtaking it's so fast.

Hamas really really bungled this thing for themselves and their people. To be honest they were winning the war of hearts and minds just fine. And then blew it all up.

if you are to believe the liberal sentiment about Ukraine, then consistency would dictate you support the Palestinians with billions in weaponry and aid.

Yeah, don’t think the goal was worldwide support but forcing the hand of Muslim countries in the region. It seems like many of the leaders in Middle East don’t care all that much about Palestine and if it was up to them would just normalize things with Israel. The populist environment in these areas is probably pretty anti Israel so leaders are forced to appease that base.

See I understand why you believe that. But zoom out.



Israel has always been the little guy in the region. The massively outnumbered (by the Muslim green). The one people are trying to extinct.

The recent construct of this even smaller marginalized group isn't inaccurate, but it also isn't the final word in the story. The bigger picture is still the notion that in that massive map, they are the only country trying not to be self-determined by Muslims. And in that sense it's perfectly consistent to want their survival, and to back it. That a smaller group has been growing around that over the last few decades doesn't invalidate that big picture.

Liken this to the attitude some black leaders have had about the meteoric rise of 2SLGBTQ+ issues. There are many circumstances where that smaller group comes first in some bizarro (lack of) power pecking order. But the black issues are just as real. Israel's issues here, are just as real. They are the OG minority in the region.

16 million Jews in the world. There aren't many groups smaller, or more historically persecuted pound for pound.

Finally something relevant. Who among us lives on actual United States of American land?

You would post a link with a made up statement that was already caught by twitter.

It doesn't change the rest of my post at all, shia/sunni split is gone.



This wasn't flagged

Btw Victor, there's another issue with your logic.

If it was just Israel somehow seeking to erase the existence of Gaza from the world, your Ukraine comment would make sense. But that's not an accurate characterization the issue, and never has been. Israel doesn't want to rid the world of Gaza (although it sure doesn't look amazing in the fighting at present). It wants the proxy war run by Iran to stop (the one Hamas just confirmed is real), so everyone can live in peace. This isn't just Israel and the Palestinians. You've got Iran, Lebanon, a bit of Syria, and who knows what else sprinkled in. So no, it's not just the Palestinians.

The bigger force is the larger puppeteers who still want to remove Israel from earth. And in that light, one can most certainly understand why supporting Israel's right to exist is indeed logically correct. The region doesn't have to be 100% Muslim. 99.7% IS fair.

Like I said before, Gaza is the ultimate rock and a hard place, being used by much larger and more sinister forces. And it always costs THEM the most.

so you are saying collectively thousands are dying and billions upon billions are being spent on weapons when every citizen there (if they would accept buyouts) could be made a millionaire if they leave and it would be exponentially cheaper in all ways.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

Btw for those of you have want to have a really interesting and less biased conversation than the ones happening in here, go talk to a Lebanese Christian or an Egyptian Christian. You will get the most balanced view you're going to find out there.