Well Hezbollah fired some rockets into Israel just to show their support and an Egyptian police officer murdered 2 Israeli tourists for being Israeli. I think Hamas approves of these actions and would like to see more across of this across the region. Don't know if that was part of their master plan but they're instigating quite a **** show. Israel was making strides across the region diplomatically so maybe Hamas is trying to sabotage this and keep Israel isolated at the expense of their own citizens and possible existence.

Hamas did this cause Israel has been killing Palestinian children weekly for the past 17 years. Israeli military love to kill P children. Israel gives civilians guns, give them Palestinian land and then the settlers get to go kill Palestinians. Not to mention that Ps are living in the worlds largest prison where everything is under control of the Israelis. It’s the largest ethnic cleansing operation in the world and nobody cares about the Ps, nobody white that is.

If their goal was world wide support, then they've really blown it. I have never seen such a massive shift in sentiment as this. Usually it has taken over a decade to create the sentiment shift this just created. 9/11 was the last time sentiment moved this fast. Basically everyone in the middle with a "swing vote" just shifted over to Israel. It's nearly unprecedented.

Obviously that can change as this evolves over the coming weeks. But TODAY, it's as I describe it. All over the internet in every place I've looked.

Russia China Iran Palestine Egypt Brazil and parts of India supporting Palestine. Check out news sources where Ps aren’t referred to as terrorists. I suggest alajazeera

The UAE official announcement I posted above is the first I've ever seen of that kind of statement towards Hamas from a Muslim country.

Gaza didn't begin as a blockade. That started in 2007. It started because for as long as I could remember, Palestinians (and others) would walk into Israel strapped with explosives and blow up markets, malls and buses. On the regular. If you're old enough you remember that. When I'd visit you couldn't bring a bag into a mall that wasn't see through, specifically because of this. Believe me it was no way to live (and I'm saying that comparatively to life in NA).

The blockade and the subsequent wall is WHY the Israeli death count has been able to steadily drop (till now), along with Israel developing their security apparatus. You've asked it so many times, so I'm telling you why. That's not a bug, it's a feature.

You mention nobody white caring about the Palestinians, but obviously that's not true. But the flipside of that, is that Egypt ALSO maintains the blockade. It takes two countries to have them locked in there, a situation that developed due to the untenable nature of the attacks pre-2007. In a world where there was more harmonious relations, the wall never goes up. That much is a fact.

So then we COULD get into the why of it all I guess. We could get into the idea that 99.7%+ of the Middle East and North Africa is self-determined by Muslims, and the Jews got a sliver of land the size of Victoria Island that they could self determine (which seems like a pretty equitable split, land-wise).

We could get into the fact that after Independence was declared in '48, the declaration contained a literal call to live WITH and alongside the Arabs (which was rejected by the Arabs, and Israel was attacked from all sides). The Christians, Baha'i and Druze did accept that offer, and have had peace in Israel ever since. The exact lines being:


"In the midst of wanton aggression, we yet call upon the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to return to the ways of peace and play their part in the development of the State, with full and equal citizenship and due representation in its bodies and institutions -- provisional or permanent.

We offer peace and unity to all the neighboring states and their peoples, and invite them to cooperate with the independent Jewish nation for the common good of all."

We could get into keyboard warriors talking about land theft while sitting on stolen indigenous lands themselves (which is a bit of a red herring given Israeli ancestry in the region going back thousands of years, but let's not bother with that one).

We could talk about how many times land for peace has failed there (no amount will ever suffice till 99.7% becomes 100%). We could talk about Iran being very public about the fact that it's not just Israel they're coming for. It's just Israel FIRST. We could also talk about how Iran frankly doesn't give two shits about how many Palestinians die for this (the more the better in their eyes).

And yes OF COURSE, we could talk about how horrible this fate has been for the Palestinians, who don't deserve to be the region's punching bag.

But we're not going to talk about that, because the conversation wouldn't be intellectually honest, or fruitful. You've made your decision, I've made mine. I have absolutely no doubt that everyone in this thread has more or less made their mind up about all this.

None of the bolded is news. India is massively pro Israel. A really strong ally actually. Israel sends them aid any time they can, they're very tight.

Russia is no surprise given their links to the region. But if your "side" is Russia, China, Iran, etc..... that's like Darth Vader and the Emperor coming to your wedding. It's not exactly something to root for, lol. The countries squashing democracy aren't the bar to strive for.

https://www.businessinsider.com/hama...rce=reddit.com

Didn’t know the Egypt thing. No reason to say people living on indigenous land can’t criticize Israel.

Since 2007 5k Palestinians have been murdered and 250 Israelis. There is no excuse for that. Israel has the money the protect and save the Palestinians from these bad actors. Now Israel is using the attack as an excuse to destroy Gaza.


Are you ok with how Israel has been targeting children for the last 16 years ? Israel has all of the weapons in the world, why do they need to kill Ps and destroy Gaza?

The formation of Israel as a jewish state in 1948 (co-incidentally, the year my mother was born in Haifa) was seen as the Nakba (the catastrophe) not just for shits and giggles, but because a lot of the jews who settled there did so incredibly violently. That violence was not directed (afaik) at Christians, the Bahai, or Druze, but arabs were forcibly removed from their lands and murdered. That is probably a better explanation of why they were pissed at the jews who occupied the land.

To answer the Hamas question, they did this for their survival as a regional political power. They are a tremendously backward, misogynistic tribal theocracy. They are everything progressives accuse MAGA Republicans of being X1000.

There is no place for them in a world where Israel and her Arab neighbors or at peace and prospering, which is where things were going. Even at the Gaza/Israel border, Israel had recently loosened the border and was allowing Palestinians to enter Israel to work and become trained professionals (doctors/lawyers/engineers) to take those skills back to Gaza and improve it. This kind of progress is anathema to Hamas.

Also, lets keep in mind the actual Hamas power brokers are in plush offices in Qatar, hundreds of miles from the misery. And the Hamas people on the ground in Gaza probably actually literally believe they are warriors of God taking Jihad to the infidels, who wont rest until every inch of land has been retaken and every Jew has been slaughtered/driven to the sea. At some point when people tell you who they are and what they are fighting for, you have to just accept they are telling you the truth.

what Carlin says about palestine:

They are pissed because they are conditioned to be pissed. They are given no other option.

The entire human history is one long line of stuff like this. How many people in the world today live where their great-grandparents did? How many of them at some point was the relocation of ancestors involuntary or violent? Many of the Jews in Israel have similar backstories, where there recent ancestors were violently expelled from either the European or Middle Eastern land their families historically lived in.

People will move on and live in the present if you let them.

So now they are shooting missiles at Jerusalem? from Gaza? Israel declared war now.

"9 US citizens dead in Israel conflict, US National Security Council says"

So now we are sending weapons to Israel.

"which allows the rapid dispatch of weapons from existing stocks, to send more aid immediately, according to a person familiar with the discussion. The drawdown will likely need additional funds from Congress, the officials told lawmakers"


https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/09/p...aza/index.html

re: Egypt and the blockade: The great tragedy here for anyone who really does their homework, is that the Palestinians are literally just "useful idiots" to the (few) Muslim countries who still want to destroy Israel. I of course don't believe the Palestinians are idiots, I have friends who are Palestinians here in Canada. The longer they've been governed by an extremist leadership, the worse their lives have gotten. It's an undeniable truth.

The targeting children thing is actually an interesting (and tragic) conversation we can have, potentially. That assumes you're intellectually honest enough to want to divide:

1) Children the IDF killed in cold blood (which has to be some I'd imagine, perhaps even many?)
2) Children the IDF killed as unfortunate collateral damage in bombardment (often as human shields sadly), which will be the largest percentage.
3) Children that are armed and attack IDF soldiers (which is most certainly a big thing)

If we had the means to split this all out, we could have an interesting dialogue. I simply don't know how to arrive at that point. I know the USA killed 1300ish chilren in Iraq (is it more?). What do we do with that number? Is the average American a child killing savage? I don't believe so. I believe war is hell.

So I'm not ok with any of the children needing to be hurt. I do believe the children throwing rocks, molotov cocktails, and worse, probably need to be detained in some fashion. Sadly from a pretty young age they're very well trained in small arms (the males). The USA got to see this first hand in a few war zones. It's a large reason those wars can't be "won".


But eventually even after horrible wars (across Europe, NA, etc), there is peace, is there not? At the end of the violence, they were invited to live among the Jews. And many many did accept eventually. As you know across Israel, not all Arab-Israeli tensions are even equal. There was an opportunity there to make it work. But the 99.7% needed to be 100%. It always needs to be 100%.

You know we talk a lot of what happens inside Israel and with good reason. Have you ever tried being a Jew/Israeli and visiting any of the Arab nations? It's a bad time. We're not talking small Jewish populations, we're talking NO Jewish populations. You can' t do it, you're dead within a week assuming you can even get in. This concept of being unwilling to have ANY of the land self-determined by Jews is really the crux of the issue. SOME should have been fair.

Look at any country, historically their borders were forged in blood. Maybe there are a few islands where that's not the case. But eventually, if there's any desire for peace, you find a way. France and Germany have swapped land in war more times than I can count (and some as recently as Israel and the Arab states). Somehow they don't keep blowing each other up.

One of the only interesting things to me, is that largely as it relates to nation-states, Israel has decent relations with the countries that used to want them extinct. For them, Israel is here. And that's the issue isn't it? Israel is here. There's no dismantling it now. There simply needs to be peace with a country self-determined by Jews. And as long as that's not accepted, we will do this over and over and over.

More Tax payer dollars going to kill Palestinian civilians. Sad af. The whole thing is sad. I wish the kids didn’t have to suffer like this. And I wish the adults cared about the kids more than themselves.

fwiw i was trying to get a feel for how big the Gaza Strip is. those ppl familiar w NYC would be able to relate to this -- Brooklyn is half the size of the Gaza Strip

The human shield argument is interesting because Israel also uses human shields but are not criticized for that.

Let’s discuss this first.

Do you view keeping civilians in militarily important areas as human shields? If not, what do you define as a human shield?

Anyone that can justify kidnapping women and children is just nuts.

Here in Canada our national news network has been instructed not to call Hamas terrorists .

Im sorry when you kidnap women and children your a terrorist

It is a small area of a highly conditioned and intentionally deprived population. It is something straight out of the Herbert's Dune world. And Arab and European power brokers are just as complicit in perpetuating this as the US and Israel. At some point the Palestinian people have to be given the wherewithal to move on.

No one in Gaza is moving back to the village their great grandparents were from. Same as none of us are. Israel isn't going to be driven to the sea, or at least if/when it does no one is going to be happy with the end game where this happens.

One can go back and forth like this endlessly. There is no catharthis or resolution in perpetuating competing narratives of injustice and justification for future violence.

The logical extension of your worldview is that there can be no peace and Israel should just finish the job or throw down their arms and let Hamas finish them. Maybe the latter is what eventually happens.

I want to show that Israel does the same things that the Ps do, but on a larger scale over the last 17 years

It's not only Hamas right?
It's the entire continent that's against the Jews. who is pro Jewish in Arabia? nobody, not even the sauds are actually.

Ok, but there is no catharthis or resolution in doing this. It just justifies and perpetuates the cycle of violence and suffering. The Nazis had their grievances too.

Where did you get this?
Israel send aid.... where and when? Massively idk. India is actually much tighter with Russia than with Israel.