you are doing the "all the same" denial of quantitative differences, again.

Are rabbis never looking at women and only speaking to the men, in judaism? because that's what happening with the imam in the photo, the women are on the side.

Moreover, even if the speaker was an imam that wasn't a religious gathering (the attendants are all infidels), that was a political speech about glorifying violent terrorism (which they call rightful jihad)

Unfortunately, you will not be able to convince me that Islam is any more patriarchal than Judaism or Christianity with just your big feelings.

lol

There are stats, namely the "women, peace & security" index, that quantify how much countries wage violence toward their women.

Among the best 10 countries (those that are less patriarchal), none is majority muslim, and in all christianity is the most common religion (although in some, it's not the majority, because of high numbers of atheists).

Among the worst 10 countries, 6 are muslim and 4 are christians.

What do we get from that? that both christianity and islam can be very "patriarchal", and very violent toward women, but *exclusively christianity* managed to become compatible with liberal modern values for now, islam didn't.

So , the fact that "trad" christianity can be bad (although never even close to trad islam) for women, is absolutely true, but that doesn't change the fact that modern, liberal islam doesn't exist (no majority islamic country in the history of the world is decent wrt women rights), while many place manages to dilute christianity enough to make it compatible with liberal, modern, pro women values.

The *best* majority muslim country in the index is in 82 place (out of 177), Indonesia, very close to Israel at 80.

https://giwps.georgetown.edu/the-index/

Gut feeling? it's in the measured, objective data.

Actually?

Kind of curious, have you spent much time in the Middle East or Africa? You seem well travelled, so your response kind of stuns me.

My African friends think I'm INSANE to cook and do dishes as much as I do. They think I'm a literal crazy person. And I'm talking from a decent spread of countries from Nigeria to Chad to Tunisia.

And I get that I'm talking geographical regions. But I'm leaning into ones heavy on Muslim populations/traditions too (obviously not Chad, but that friend was quite the discussion when we had it).

That won't cut it as per my post above, because some very very very not-women-friendly countries in Africa are christians. Congo for ex, as per link above

Muslim is peculiar because even with very good wealth it doesn't secularize basically, that's the exceptional part

Religion =/= cultures

The same as above could be said of the Amish.

It's bad to equate the fundamentalists and fascists with the principles and tenets of a religion, but every time a non-pluralist country is Islamic, the policies seem far worse than in Israel or Mexico, where Jews and Christians are respectively an extreme majority.

At their core, all three religions have the same oppression of women. Islamic governments have noticeably evolved a lot slower, though.

That said, I don't think this is an Islamic problem. Islam is still a very young religion (1400 years old, right?). Rewind 600 years ago, and Puritanic Christians were pretty brutal at this stage of their religion.

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the very sad thing if you believe the Biblical account, and even if you don't; is that it's certainly true that Jews and Arabs are cousins

In the Biblical account Abraham, the first Hebrew patriarch fathered 2 sons, Isaac and Ishmael

Isaac is the 2nd of the patriarchs of the Jewish people, the only son of Abraham and Sarah and the father of Jacob and Esau

Isaac is also revered by Muslims because along with Ishmael he continued their father's spiritual journey thru the preaching of the message of Allah (the Arab word for God) after the death of Abraham

Ishmael is recognized by Muslims as the ancestor of several northern Arab tribes and the forefather of Adnan who was the ancestor of Muhammad

Muslims believe that Muhammad was the descendent of Ishmael who would establish a great nation and according to Islamic doctrine he was divinely inspired to preach and confirm the monotheistic teachings of Abraham, Moses and others

in Deuteronomy from the Old Testament it is written "The Lord our God. The Lord is One"

in the Quran it is written "He is God. The One."


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Europeans killed each others in great numbers for centuries using fairly minimal religious differences as the excuse as well. While many people ended up then, and end up today, actually believing the religious difference justifies the violence, the idea is that leaders simply exploit that as one of the tools to motivate their masses to do their biddings , in this case, try to extract resources from other, neighbouring groups, the oldest and most common reason for all human warfare.

Now in the Israel/palestine case things are more complicated because one side has nothing of worth to be stolen by the other, and that side is helped in it's efforts by other people who aren't even cousins in the way you mention here (persians aren't related to jews/arabs that much)

This is pretty close to my understanding as well. If you just look at the governmental and legal frameworks across countries, it is pretty glaring that predominantly Islamic countries deprive women of basic human rights at much higher levels as compared to other countries. I’m pretty baffled that this is an argument, to be honest.

Because she denies quantification. She did that already in other arguments. Basically anything but absolute purity is identical under that framework. That allows for very silly claims, like saying very few incidences of military rapes by american soldiers make them identical to crusaders or the red army in poland.

It's frequent on the very far left to deny quantification because moral ranking is very frowned upon by them. They really hate the idea that we can somewhat objectively claim some group of people is better than another, because sometimes this has been done with nefarious purposes, so they deny it can be done at all.

So glad the spirit of Vic is still in this chat.

Some people in this thread simply want the latter.

Guys like BH want that…

Put me in the baffled camp too

You don't really know anything about Nigeria. Maybe you've seen some news items about the rise of fundamentalism in some areas and assume the whole country is Muslim, which is a long way from the truth.

Seems like you've invented a bunch of African friends to try to impress people online with tbh.

Depends what tradition the rabbi belongs to.

Where on Earth are you going with this?

Palestinians have a great deal of worth that the Israelis want to steal, and are stealing, mainly East Jerusalem and the West Bank (or 'Judea and Samaria', as Israeli nationalists like to call it).

Not to Nigeria clearly, a country he knows next to nothing about.

wtf, i was told that this conflict started on oct 7 2023

Patriarchal is a very vague word and I don't think anyone is trying to convince you of anything regarding that.

It shouldn't be difficult to convince you that Muslims do more FGM than Jews or Christians do. Or that Muslim countries are far more likely to have legal restrictions on the actions of women thsn do Jewish or Christian countries.