In general, we expect emergency responders to take reasonable steps to prevent people from killing themselves.

It's also worth remembering that the far more common scenario is the one in which intervention by parents or other bystanders is likely to make the situation worse or likely to interfere with a rational emergency response.

For instance, imagine the scenario in which a person with a gun is holding a woman hostage in a windowless room. I don't know much about hostage situations, but I'm guessing that the standard playbook is to try and talk the guy out of room first, and then to breach the room if that doesn't work. In that scenario, yeah, I probably want police to tackle the boyfriend if he is trying to breach the room before the experienced hostage negotiator thinks it is a good idea.

It still astounds me after nearly 25 years since the Australian gun laws that with how far society has progressed that the US still hasn't followed suit.

Its not a comprable situation, culturally.
They cannot do that, here, without massive potential 'social disorder' consequences.
This is the elephant in the room that all politicians run into whenever meaningful gun regulations are proposed.

This isn't new.

The 1934 NFA originally included handguns, but they realized that the constituency was too large and would cause massive potential problems, so they didn't. The "short barrel" provisions still in the NFA are a vestige of the original intent of the law that was to regulate anything 'concealable'. They're literally an accident.

The 1968 GCA again came very close to retroactive regulations but again, realized that it would create stuff that went far beyond 'political blowback', so they didn't.
There's an INSANELY underrated and somewhat obscure book called "The Saturday Night Special" written by an otherwise anti-gun'ish type that basically nails this issue down to its component parts with insight (and a lot of proven-true foresight) that doesn't exist anywhere else.

https://www.amazon.com/Saturday-Nigh.../dp/0140040099

To put it another way:
There are 20mm AR15 rifles in the US.
Lets shoot from the hip and say there are 8mm AR15 owners. May be more, or less, but lets just use that number for arguments sake.

Of the 8,000,000 AR15 owners, an overwhelming percentage of them believe that they would turn into Rambo and fight the government if they ever banned them, but they're delusional.
Most would line up to hand them over. Lets say 99% do.
That leaves us with 80,000 who wouldn't.

The 1% of the 1% is always the problem, so lets say that's 800-1000 Tim McVeigh types who would instantly start doing really, REALLY bad stuff in retalliation.

Nobody wants to kick that off.

Once upon a time in a past life, I was neck deep in gun culture. I stepped away, largely motivated by not wanting any proximity to those kinds of people but nevertheless regularly encountering them at shoots, gun shows, etc. Real cranks, some with obviously nothing to lose whose entire identity was tied up in their guns. Genuinely creepy bastards who are probably harmless enough if left alone, but would be capable of dangerous stuff if you threatened their identity. They're very real and there isn't enough manpower to surviel them all 24/7.

I didn't demand anything. I simply said it was a poor word choice.

If you think by my saying it was a poor word choice that I was demanding something from anyone and think I'm being a "petty control-freak tard," trying to be a "well-informed referee of conversation," then I'll just be putting you in the Flush/Nep category of hysterical posters, but I won't hold it against you.

I have no interest in discussing transgender people, sorry.

Lunatics slaughtering innocent people create a very different threat profile.
At that point, stopping them as quickly as possible is all that matters.
Cops standing idlly by while its happening ... ? The boyfriend who wants to go in has a totally logical case.

Those cowards in Texas are getting dragged across the internet by pretty much all other cops.
They're no longer behind the blue wall.

Seems that the 'cops allowed in to save their own families" anecdote had a basis in fact.
https://nypost.com/2022/05/27/cbp-of...save-daughter/

Also, coincidentally, the hero used the word "hysterical", so trigger warning for poor Land o Lakes.

Yes, he's a liberal. That's why he was so upset that Hunter Biden wasn't prosecuted for corruption.
Next thing you know, he'll be telling us it's a special military operation, not a war.
Genius.

Evidence that it's made up?

I provided you some evidence that it was a realistic number; do you have something that counters that?

And to answer the question you were asked about it, yes it appears that it does include all deaths by gunfire.

Please quote any post of mine addressing Hunter Biden. I'll wait...

You guys are funny. Because I thought Rittenhouse was an idiot to go to a riot and his parents even bigger idiots to let him go, but I felt the shootings in the street were legally in self-defense, Flush assumes I'm a right wing nut.

Because I corrected you that there is indeed a federal law requiring background checks for anyone buying a firearm through an FFL dealer, you lost your **** and now assume I'm a right wing nut.

Cute.

The supposition was that cops went in to save their own children and no one else, and I said that was ridiculous - "he made a plan with other officers to try to enter the school and evacuate as many students as possible."

In which lagtight learns the difference between precision and accuracy.

I think the Beverly Hills PD has cops that pretty much match their communities' demographic.

Do whatever mental gymnastics you want.

A cop using a shotgun comandeered from his barber was personally allowed in (other parents were not) to make a targeted evacuation of- specifically- his own children.
That guy is a hero, but his own personal interests were prioritized over the interests of other non-cop families.

Should I see if I can't find his FB or Twitter account so you can lecture him on his inappropriate use of the word "hysterical"?

Nep's trying to bring race into the picture likely because he's woke, but it's obviously classism. Compare a bunch of broke people's kids getting shot vs a bunch of kids at a $60K/yr prep school in D.C. and watch how quickly the cops engage the shooter.

No mental gymnastics. I agree that it's ridiculous that this person was given special consideration, particularly since the senior officer wouldn't let other cops in who might have wanted to go in. He did, however, rescue a bunch of children before he got to his kid and maybe even more after he reached his kid, so while I agree that the impetus for him going to the school was self-serving, he didn't do what the rumors said had happened.

I don't think his use was inappropriate.

You're putting much too fine a point on it.

I really don't know many (or any) liberals who will sit on a political chat forum and make you guess at their positions or the points they're trying to make.

Liberals tend to want to argue and have discussions and understand how the process works.

It's like Paul D who comes here when it's election time and tells us how he's the 'real progressive'.

It's not that he's lying. He probably thinks he is. It's just that not many people agree with him.

You know very well some of the things you said on the Politics betting thread.
But that's going on two years ago.
Maybe I took something out of context. Maybe you were being sarcastic.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with supporting Trump. Millions of Americans do.
We're not all going to have the same political opinions, and it's good so.
So I'm not on any personal vendetta here.
My conscious is clear.
Have a nice day.

If you want my position on something, just ask. Unlike extreme righties/lefties, I'm reasonable and open to hearing and considering other people's opinions on things. Don't misconstrue that for being equivocal.

For example, as a gun owner who also thinks there needs to be better gun control, I'm engaging in discourse with others on the topic, getting viewpoints from rational people.

I realize it would just be easier for you to place me in a nice neat little group that you can judge if I came off as, "**** you - 2A all the way you girdle wearing libtards!" or "The 2A needs be abolished and all you scared gun nuts need to get laid!," but I don't generally proselytize in political threads I already have strong feelings about.

You have me confused for someone else. I didn't even know there was a betting thread, let alone even posted in it. I also never made even one post praising anything Trump ever did, let alone actually support him.

I wasn't commenting on the Uvalde situation specifically. It's pretty clear that the response there was indefensible. The only question is why it happened.

Like anyone is gonna fall for that again.

I am now confused if you say you had no idea about a betting thread.
I'm not even going to do any research and bother to look back, because like I said, this isn't any kind of personal vendetta. I apologize if I misrepresented you.
But this really isn't about whether you're a liberal or a conservative or not.
It's about you acting condescending and trying to belittle everyone else's opinions.
That's why you're being confronted by multiple people here, and not just me.
Think about that.

Yes, it would be totally reasonable for the BF to put together a logical case to become a vigilante.

But 'allowing' that sort of behavior under the law is going to take what will easily be the most tragic situation a few poor souls will have to endor and make the expected outcome significantly worse.

I do agree that these cops are feeling some well deserved shame.
Good, it will motivate the guys who have to respond to the (sadly too soon to be) next shooting.

I really don't post in this forum much. If you did an advanced search with my user name (yeah, I know you're not interested) and Politics & Society as the forum search, you'll see I only have a single page of threads I've ever posted in. Maybe you have me mistaken with LOLOL because sometimes when I see his name I think it's me for a second, lol. If he stole my avatar, it would really mess me up.

I wasn't a dick to you until you were a dick to me, but if you thought I was a massive Trumper from prior posting then I could understand why you were curt with me. Flush is just a troll, so it is what it is, and LOLOL got bent when I said hysterical was a poor choice of word because he thought I was being woke.

Whose opinions and which ones have I belittled?

There's no way to 'allow' for it under the law, since a system of law can't work by building in mechanisms that allow indivudual people to overrule the law at their own discretion.
Its one of those dogshit situations where yes, I completely understand why Cain Velasquez shot up the car with the guy who allegedally mollested his son... but ya just can't allow that.

I don't think that type of police 'inaction' will ever happen again in a school shooting situation, anymore than people will cooperate with hijackers weilding box cutters.
Cops around the country are seeing for themselves the burning shame being heaped onto the Texas cowards by other cops. There is no endless appeal to nuance, or understanding of 'tactics'. Cops hate those cops pretty bad, right now.