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On gender and discrimination On gender and discrimination

09-03-2019 , 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Kelhus999
Replace discrimination with roles, and the following website lays it out pretty good. Biology 101.

https://theconversation.com/male-fem...fference-12786
This goes along with what I wrote previously, about where I would accept an argument from evolutionary biology.

The problem is: you can't replace gender-based employment discrimination with roles (as defined in that article: i.e. mostly reproductive roles) without completely changing the subject. They aren't even close to being equivalent. The equivocation is just assuming the conclusion.
On gender and discrimination Quote
09-03-2019 , 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by adios
Vast majority of nannies being women probably not much of a problem

Vast majority of bricklayers being men probably not much of a problem

Vast majority of software devs being men probably is a substantial problem
Why is one a problem and the other two not a problem, if it is the same biological gender traits and cultural gender norms which create all 3 outcomes.
On gender and discrimination Quote
09-03-2019 , 01:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelhus999
Why look at arbitrary mammalian societies. You are the geneticist. Why don't we do it based on genetic kinship to us. How many millions of years do you have to go back to find a common ancestor to a single mammal that doesn't follow the basic natural human history outline I just gave, where the mother wasn't the primary food source and caregiver for their children during early childhood?
Yeah man, mammals give birth to live young and nurse them. That is what it means to be mammals. After that, there is an incredible diversity about how packs of mammals organize themselves, most of which you'd find uncomfortable or unacceptable for a large number of reasons. Why don't we take more notes from our closest relative, the chimpanzee, and have males dominate, females sleep around, and males kill the infants of females when he's not the father?
On gender and discrimination Quote
09-03-2019 , 01:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelhus999
Why is one a problem and the other two not a problem, if it is the same biological gender traits and cultural gender norms which create all 3 outcomes.
What biological traits make someone a software engineer?
On gender and discrimination Quote
09-03-2019 , 01:59 PM
If we're going to mimic other primates, I call dibs on that bonobo life.
On gender and discrimination Quote
09-03-2019 , 02:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelhus999
Can you refute my arguments at all? Can you argue against the theory why in a sexual reproducing species the sex that produces a small number of large, relatively valuable eggs is going to bear more "costs" of childcare compared to the sex that has a very large number of cheap, motile sperm?
On gender and discrimination Quote
09-03-2019 , 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by MrWookie
What biological traits make someone a software engineer?
In our society it is considered a high status job. So males being more interested in competing for status for biological reasons would certainly explain part of it.

There is also the observation that it is a job working with things, as opposed to people, and would correspond naturally to appeal to the sex that has evolved a lower predisposition towards empathy and cooperation. I don't think it is an accident when you go through the list of jobs all the male dominated ones are working with things, and all the female dominated ones involve working with people.

And thirdly, males having higher variance generally (due to reproductive strategy reasons) would indicate a higher % of them being at the high end of the Pareto distribution as far as having the particular cognitive skills necessary to be a high level programmer.

There is probably more, but this is a good start I think.
On gender and discrimination Quote
09-03-2019 , 02:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelhus999
Ironically, the patriarchy was a (mostly successful) attempt to use culturally imposed coercion to reduce the inequity in median reproductive success between males and females to reduce intra-tribe violence (among other benefits), although the best it has seemed to do is get the ratio down to 2:1.

In a way, all the gender equity initiatives of our time is the opposite side of that coin, and I expect similarly limited results requiring a similar amount of culturally imposed coercion/oppression.
By no means is "monogamy" synonymous with "the patriarchy."
On gender and discrimination Quote
09-03-2019 , 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by MrWookie
Ok. When was the last common ancestor between that animal (seahorse?) and humans? How many hundreds of millions of years are we going back?
On gender and discrimination Quote
09-03-2019 , 02:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelhus999
In our society it is considered a high status job. So males being more interested in competing for status for biological reasons would certainly explain part of it.
LOL

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There is also the observation that it is a job working with things, as opposed to people, and would correspond naturally to appeal to the sex that has evolved a lower predisposition towards empathy and cooperation.
LOL, wow, you also know nothing about software engineering.
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I don't think it is an accident when you go through the list of jobs all the male dominated ones are working with things, and all the female dominated ones involve working with people.
Or apparently business in general

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And thirdly, males having higher variance generally (due to reproductive strategy reasons) would indicate a higher % of them being at the high end of the Pareto distribution as far as having the particular cognitive skills necessary to be a high level programmer.
Ah, naked sexism.

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There is probably more, but this is a good start I think.
LOL
On gender and discrimination Quote
09-03-2019 , 02:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie
What biological traits make someone a software engineer?
It might be the same ones that make them prisoners/homeless at a disproportionately higher rate.


As long as we are talking about income:



61% to 49%. Take a guess as why this is? It's that pesky "motherhood penalty" you all seem to dislike, but serves to benefit women, and their children.
On gender and discrimination Quote
09-03-2019 , 02:16 PM
Is the argument from Wookie et al that if men were less sexist that the problems would correct themselves?
Why is it that women don't become software engineers at a rate equal to men and should they?
On gender and discrimination Quote
09-03-2019 , 02:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelhus999
Ok. When was the last common ancestor between that animal (seahorse?) and humans? How many hundreds of millions of years are we going back?
On gender and discrimination Quote
09-03-2019 , 02:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie
Yeah man, mammals give birth to live young and nurse them. That is what it means to be mammals. After that, there is an incredible diversity about how packs of mammals organize themselves, most of which you'd find uncomfortable or unacceptable for a large number of reasons. Why don't we take more notes from our closest relative, the chimpanzee, and have males dominate, females sleep around, and males kill the infants of females when he's not the father?
Chimpanzees are probably what human societies would have evolved to look like without the patriarchy. It is believed that is exactly what the patriarchy evolved for, to enable us to evolve more equitable, monogamous, less violent societies; mainly by controlling the sexuality of females in their reproductive years.

And as a consequence of lower direct mate competition we evolved smaller (relative) gonads, less size gender disparity, and lower propensity towards direct intragroup violence between males, among other biological features.
On gender and discrimination Quote
09-03-2019 , 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by itshotinvegas
It might be the same ones that make them prisoners/homeless at a disproportionately higher rate.
LOL
On gender and discrimination Quote
09-03-2019 , 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by MrWookie
LOL
The difference between a minor league ballplayer and a MLB player is great.
On gender and discrimination Quote
09-03-2019 , 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc
Why is it that women don't become software engineers at a rate equal to men and should they?
I don't know. Let's eliminate the sexism and discrimination and then find out.
On gender and discrimination Quote
09-03-2019 , 02:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie
I don't know. Let's eliminate the sexism and discrimination and then find out.
Cool, stop valuing STEM as a high status job.
On gender and discrimination Quote
09-03-2019 , 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by itshotinvegas
Cool, stop valuing STEM as a high status job.
How do you propose that we as a society stop having high status jobs?
On gender and discrimination Quote
09-03-2019 , 02:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie
How do you propose that we as a society stop having high status jobs?
Ha! Don't ask me for solutions to achieve your goal. It stands to reason that one reason these disparities occurring in STEM fields, is because of the status associated to them, and males are attracted to status. Reducing the amount of men, reduces their chances of being sexist when looking to add folks to these fields. You have to deal with the status issue, sooner or later. Ironically the status given to these fields is exactly why you care about the discrepancy in this field, you do not really care about the discrepancy in fields that are not of the same status, such as criminals.
On gender and discrimination Quote
09-03-2019 , 02:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelhus999
In fairness to myself, I tend to only get snarky with people that are snarky to me first. Maybe this is an all to human weakness in me, and something I should work on, but it is what it is.

Asking me to unilaterally dial back the snarkiness with a poster like Max Cut seems highly discriminatory. I don't think he has ever made a single post to me that wasn't intentionally derogatory, condescending and normally outright mean.
Here's the thing though, you post bigoted racist and sexist BS and I don't. So yeah, I often eschew politeness for directness because, like I've said before, **** off.

Last edited by Max Cut; 09-03-2019 at 02:41 PM.
On gender and discrimination Quote
09-03-2019 , 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by itshotinvegas
Ha! Don't ask me for solutions to achieve your goal. It stands to reason that one reason these disparities occurring in STEM fields, is because of the status associated to them,
Uh, no it doesn't

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and males are attracted to status.
So are women.

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Reducing the amount of men, reduces their chances of being sexist when looking to add folks to these fields.
Why not just reduce the sexism?

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You have to deal with the status issue, sooner or later.
Not really

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Ironically the status given to these fields is exactly why you care about the discrepancy.
This isn't really irony.
On gender and discrimination Quote
09-03-2019 , 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by MrWookie
This isn't really irony.
Quote:
A recent study focusing on property crimes investigates whether there is a gender difference in the probability of arrest (one of the costs of engaging in crime) and in illegal earnings (one of the benefits of engaging in crime) that might explain the difference in crime propensity [3]. Using a large administrative data set for the US (the National Incident-Based Reporting System Resource) with data on individuals from 1995 to 2015, the study finds that there is a gender difference in incentives to participate in criminal activities: on average, men earn 13% more than women and face a 9% higher probability of arrest.
https://wol.iza.org/articles/women-in-crime/long
Do you care about this pay gap?
On gender and discrimination Quote
09-03-2019 , 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc
Is the argument from Wookie et al that if men were less sexist that the problems would correct themselves?
Wookie thinks gender-based discrimination and sexual harassment are real things.

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Why is it that women don't become software engineers at a rate equal to men and should they?
See above.
On gender and discrimination Quote
09-03-2019 , 02:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie
How do you propose that we as a society stop having high status jobs?
Youre understanding of biology relating to this subject is absolutely feeble. We can circle back to that. You've had a dreadful time articultating yourself while also composing posts that the beginning, middle, and end all amount to "LOL"

In the spirit of "good faith" and making progress in the conversation, why don't you summarize your perspective of womens history in the work place. How and why did they enter? what were the barriers? how did they overcome them?

This question goes out to everyone, its just that I expect wookie as an articulate leader to dazzle us with his insight
On gender and discrimination Quote

      
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