I don't know what I said could be seen as an "attack". I'm just exploring your analogy.

I thought the analogy made perfect sense if misalignment meant systemic racism and worn tires meant the disparately funded black farmers. My assumption was that farming subsidies was the car. But then not wanting farming subsidies would be throwing the car out altogether. In which case I'm not understanding what the analogy was supposed to address.

I'd agree there's nothing inherently wrong with disparity. My issue is that I think there's going to be something wrong with disparities along racial lines when it comes to things like farming. I don't see why that kind of disparity isn't a sign that something is wrong.

You should be banned for post like this because it's just such an egregious lie... With the only purpose to derail of the thread because you're too incompetent to engage.

This is an egregious lie. I've defend current subsidies/stimulus from accusations of racism. Pointing to why they exist is not defending subsidies/stimulus.

So why do you think the civil rights act etc led to such a giant political re-alignment? If the right says that legislation 'fixed' everything(and we're just seeing after effects)--then why go on a ~50yr project aimed at rolling it back/stifling any new efforts aimed at addressing where it's not living up to its goals?

Black NBA players probably receive at least 76% of player salaries, and that's their percentage of the NBA population. Similarly, whites are disproportionately represented in farming.

Currently, in both institutions the funding goes to those who are the most competent, in most cases. The car is pretty well aligned. In the case of the NBA, the uptake in basketball was/is greater in black communities. Just as whites and farming. These are cultural legacies. Should those disparities exist? Probably not, but they do. The disparities in their current form, in these two examples, aren't an issue.

Current farming subsidies by the US government is an attempt to align the car in order to get lower food cost and provide a safe food supply, but it doesn't wear the tires the way they want it to. It doesn't accomplish that. I don't necessarily think there's any negative outcomes other than wasted resources that could be better spent elsewhere. You think because wife gets more there's something inherently unfair about that. If that's the case, you can have a real big issue when it's demonstrated that the US, and all it's races, has a big advantage compared the whole host of other countries, in many different areas as a result of capitalism (economic alignment).

Left wing cancel culture is out of control!

https://www.edweek.org/leadership/fl...-fired/2021/05

Don't give us our money back too quickly

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/19/u...gtype=Homepage

I wouldn't be so blasé about cultural affinities. You can easily tell a story how African Americans were pushed out of farming (and anything in general) in the south through expropriation from the late 1800s through the 1960s and the corresponding black flight to the cities in the north prepared the way for African Americans in basketball because basketball is a sport more easily done in urban areas than in rural areas.

I'd really say that the percentage of white and black farmers is the result of survivorship bias. The farming population was 25% of the total population in the 1920s and now is something like 7%. Those who left farming were usually those who had less money, had to take on more debt, etc. and that probably affected African American farmers more who in general, lets just say, weren't on even terms with the rest of the farmers in America either through inheritance or the then current law. I definitely wouldn't say it was merely the work of the free market, up through the 70s to 80s.

Does that mean we should help black farmers? I don't know, it's a small and dwindling population of workers and the yeoman farmer of old is pretty much dead so we're not out here helping the family farm in any sense or at least we won't be in a few years.

http://www.ncpolicywatch.com/2021/05...rPjRk1PcbuexXw

Left wing cancel culture is out of control!

That does not make the argument you think it does.

If TODAY the gov't creates an agency and policy to confiscated every home owned by a POC and gave those assets to "White people who already own a home', I am sure you would call that 'CURRENT' action governmental institutionalized racism.

However, if the gov't, under pressure rescinds that policy and finds a way to pivot to what they think will be a more palatable law saying 'to make things fair we will instead give out massive 'Home Owner Grants', because we believe home ownership is beneficial and the massive amount of tax dollars we will give out will be skewed by percent by how much asset value you CURRENTLY have in your home', what YOU are saying is 'this is not a continuation and furtherance of the prior racist policy as poor white people who never owned a home in the first instance got no benefit then and are getting left out now, just like the POC are.


Anyone not you, can see the policy was FIRST designed to strip POC of wealth and assets and then the gov't pivoted to 'rewarding those who have wealth and assets' as a means to protect the advantage they artificially gave them and to make it much HARDER for the POC to make a come back and ever compete again.

But you do not want to even engage with the latter TRUTH and instead hand wave it away as if 'all is fair now because some poorer white people are caught up too'.

The problem is not that IHIV will not recognize historical abuse and racism. Most today will not go into that deep denialism. Heck even Steven Miller would admit that, I am quite sure.

It is that he does not see that in many instances those abuses are being purposely perpetuated to protect the power structure established as a result of that prior abuse.


There are two reason why people say what he does. The 1st is they have been convinced of the 'logic' of it and 'believe' the spin. The 2nd is, they want to perpetuate the imbalance for whatever reasons.

An example of this type of 'logic' to perpetuate 'advantage' or 'abuse' is how the Republicans, country wide are looking at statistical data as to what voting requirements they can change that will disparately impact and thus reduce POC voter roles.

Their goals and tactics are now OUT. The dark money groups funding these changes have spoken publicly and called for these for years seeing the threat of more POC voting meaning Republicans cannot win.

So they feed people like IHIV some 'logic'. These 'changed requirements DO NOT only impact POC and do impact some poor whites, thus they cannot be racist in nature'.

That is the entirety of what i have seen with regards to IHIV's arguments to hand wave away any racist intent as if a willingness to negatively impact poorer white people means that the powerful whites are not targeting POC and are just ok with the friendly fire causalities amongst poor white.

This is often about 'using force to elevate one group (whites) into all the levers or power and wealth and production. And then finding more 'palatable', 'spin'able' and 'defensible' ways to try and protect that advantage gained and keep the playing field tilted towards them'.

I am typically more skeptical of people who perpetuate these nonsense 'spin' rationalizations as IHIV does as being on the mischievous side of the ledger but it is entirely possible he is on the dupe side. That he buys the rationalizations the mischievous people are spinning hoping they get enough buyers.

You have defended them. That is fact.

You can both be over all 'for getting rid of farm subsidies' while also arguing that they 'are being given fairly and without discrimination even if i want them gone'.


You argue intently the latter.

I think he thinks he's fighting the 'commies'. While conveniently overlooking that white people have been Massive fans of affirmative action etc for pretty much our entire history here--but only as long as it helps only white people.

And here we go.

This is the type of 'logic' IHIV has had to accept to rationalize his world view, in full display.

Key difference.

Black NBA players had to OVERCOME gov't and league discrimination to get a RIGHT to compete on merit and EARN their 76% representation.

WHite Farmers were GIFTED decades upon decades of gov't discrimination against POC, gifting them size, heft and wealth (production).



Ouch.

Yes merit or competence is at play in the NBA and is the foundation of the success of black players.

No. merit or competence is not at play in Farming due to the MASSIVE and UNDENYABLE prior benefits gifted to them to put them out of reach.

(This is very much the Steven Miller type allusion to POC just lack competence...they need to get better...pull up their bootstraps.)

a true free market allowed for that yes.

Just in case this statement was anyway attached to the prior 'pretty well aligned car', no the f*ck it is not in farming.

The smashed the POC car with gov't force and even when they removed that force, the gov't stepped in and said 'the cars that have driven the most miles over the last decades will get massive gasoline subsidies going forward.
And IHIV, says 'see that is fair as poor whites have not logged a lot of miles either and will ALSO be impacted'.





F*cking LOL.

At lease we got a 'probably' out of him for the direct confiscation of POC land and all the other documented abuse.

IHIV - The govt 'probably' should not have done that. It was 'probably' not the right thing to do.


It takes massive ignorance to say 'Rewarding Production' is fair after stripping all POC of their production and giving it to Whites first.

That is a hell of a rationalization.

BUt i know, I know, some poor whites get caught up too. Thus all is fair.


What it does much worse than the gov't doing nothing is continue to advantage the group who was PRIOR advantages by a clear racist policy with a clear racist intent.

That policy was to destroy POC wealth and production in Farming and transfer it to whites.

It WORKED.

To then switch to 'now lets instead reward with free gifts of money those who are most 'PRODUCTIVE'' and to spin that is fair is just ludicrous beyond comprehension.

Willful blindness could hardly explain it.

The NBA is not a great comparison for farmers.
Farming has a barrier to entry and the NBA is pretty basic competition.

To compare to farming you would need to give both black and white farmers the same amount of land, same soil, same equipment, same weather then see who produces the most yield and reward them the subsidies
White farmers are not the majority because of historically superior performance in that field and could probably argue that white farmers have been **** farmers for most of the last 400 years because for most of the time it was black people doing the actual farming for the lazy white land owners.

There are slave designed irrigation canals that are still providing flood protection in South Carolina rice country today. The white land owners didn't really know jack **** about farming until their African slaves taught them.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...XAkZVkihAjOMup

Compare the NBA owners to who has Ag pretty much locked down--and things start to look a lot more similar

Yeah, I'm with you here. I think what I found weird was that if misalignment = systemic racism, and worn tires = the situation of black farmers in the present, then his analogy makes perfect sense. But attempts to fix that is YOUR position, not his. He doesn't think there's a problem with the alignment and he sure as hell doesn't want to fix the tires, and when pressed says he doesn't think they should even have cars at all.

I don't know if I've ever seen someone come up with an analogy quite so good while also being that out of touch with the conversation. It's fascinating.

Oof
True

And i can respect people who are 'against Farming subsidies' entirely. The likely consequence is that America is out of the Farming business though and all produce brought in from Mexico and other, so you have to accept that though.

But if subsidies persist and recognizing that 97% of all the last round of money went to powerful, big production, White Owned Farms it should certainly be seen as some type of abuse if the next round of subsidy cash is purposely targeted at small POC owned farms both to help correct the current imbalance and historical imbalances.

Steven Miller's group immediately suing to block it, when almost certainly it was his group behind the 'classification' of who would get the last round, that went 97% white owned, examining it down the last detail of race,' is reason enough to be skeptical of any of the arguments being repeated and used by those like IHIV.

My hunch is that the people who do "get out" might be the reason why poverty remains in those communities.

https://epionline.org/app/uploads/20...ov_FINAL-1.pdf

Yeah.

And an idiot customer who didn't understand tire wear or alignment might accuse the mechanic of trying to scam him by selling him tires when the old ones were perfectly good.

You can't really account for crazy, stupid people can you ?

I really wouldn't want you fixing my brakes.

Well, we could allow them to participate in the process even if we don't like all their ideas.

Maybe they'll come up with something called ABC and it won't be the best or most comfortable thing but instead of fussing and talking down to them like we would to petulant children, we treat them as equals and allow their ideas to stand or fall on their merit in the real world.

I mean....I'm just kidding. Let's give them compliance training and a donut and call it even.

Oh, I see. I wasn't aware the US had such a good "competence-based" system of farming (in most cases). How do they manage this? In most cases, that is.

I would have thought that competence has become a much smaller factor than being able to farm on a large scale with all the latest technology, but I don't know a lot abut farming.

lol full HIV forum's #1 proponent of cancel culture

Enjoy it while you can; I can't guarantee how long I can maintain my current standard of excellence.