I think we have moved from freefall to " the line is flat."

Well, its unlikely she died due to low vitamin D.

The tweet is kind of scummy, but that dynamic will just get worse in future as the belligerently unvaccinated (by choice) start dropping off, and given the cost to treat them along with the risk they are taking spreading it (and creating variants) for others - why would their sickness and deaths not be used as a teaching moment for others. When news reports or officials coldly say that 99%+ of deaths are among the unvaccinated - that is the same messaging, only in a less emotional, macro sense. After that the vast bulk derps will derp it up because that is what derps do, though maybe a few will have a moment of clarity. It's all math in the end. Do I think the hillbillies in Arkansas will go from 30% to 60% vaccinated? No, but if enough unvaccinated people getting sick and croaking help get it to 40-50% then the derisive messaging has a purpose. If some want to fantasize that this means we live in China controlled 1984 as a result - whatever, derps gonna derp - pat them in their head (while inserting a chip) and move onto those that may be less derpy.

The world will likely get pretty nasty for the next while, and blame can go around to those that are cynical and the derps that created the scenario for themselves (and others).

We can be better than that. Most people get why it's bad and we mustn't let a few loud voices on the interthingy dominate anything.

They dont speak for us, they are not wise or even funny. They dont have the answer to anything.

I would suggest the only loud voice that had a real impact was Trump on his derps. Otherwise the loud voices tend to get lost amid the clutter of infinite tweets and randos posting on the internet.

A specific story will once in a while get some traction for a short while, like this woman holding her sandwhich, but otherwise the loud voices are kind of on the sidelines, as getting people vaccinated is more of a logistical undertaking. The marketing is definitely a big part of that and most of the messaging is "positive" but eventually more persuasive negative marketing helps. Most "quit smoking" advertisements are not pictures of happy ex-smokers baking cookies and hugging their grandkids and puppies as music plays on a perfect sunny day.

If you want humanity to be better then you do something to work toward that goal. You be one of the volunteers who drives people to get vaccinated or positively teaches those why they should get vaccinated. Do your individual part to make the world a nicer place, and I am not saying that in a cynical manner. Do it if that matters to you, but recognize that most of humanity does not have that approach, especially when dealing with a hostile target market that essentially is getting exactly what they want and deserve.

One of the things we do is end this awful domination by scummy loud voices on the interent

In the civilised world this is beginning to be understood and underway. As with everythign, if our side dont lead the way then the other side will.

Loud voices on the internet do not move the needle that much, despite their volume. Before the internet there were loud voices in other forms and for the most part they had the similar minimal net impact.

The internet has helped people find those that validate the beliefs they already had, but that again is a minimal change in the mix of humanity. Look at the various Covid threads here. All sorts of loud voices, but good luck showing me any change that any of them have made to anyone else. Volume without results, and those screaming just care about the screaming.

What you can control is what you do about it. I choose to dabble once in a while and be amused by the gaggle of derps and their "thought" process, all the while knowing what they and I say in general and to each other has no impact. That entertains me for a while then I move on. If you want to choose a more positive, constructive approach (like how I suggested in the other post) then seriously thumbs up to you. If you just want to be the voice that says the loud voices are meanies - and can't we all get along, then if that is what does it for you - go for it. Once in a while that gets traction like the "leave Britney alone" person, but otherwise it tends to just be part of the clutter.

We disagree. Happily on this occasion I dont doubt it's being recognised and beginning to be tackled

Yes of course it existed before but so did cock ups before the computer was invented

Maybe you would do this, but there is zero chance that this would be done on a widespread basis without regulatory pressure.

Even in the era of COVID, few people choose restaurants based on air circulation, and very few restaurant owners would take the hit to profitability. Rightly or wrongly, what you are describing is very different than food safety from the restaurant owner's perspective. If you get a food borne illness, you are very likely to blame the restaurant you just visited. If you get the flu, not so much.

I think one can look at how it has been approached on a macro level and be utterly impressed. Definitely some bumps on the way in how information was given and assumptions on how some things worked, but hard to say the past year is nothing other than a success given what was at hand. The next few months may be dirtier as essentially society becomes vaccinated or non vaccinated, but that is kind of how it has to go, so if the bulk of intentionally unvaccinated choose the delta vaccine - just the way it is at this point. Help those who want help.

I see this as slightly different though.

In Vancouver (BC) we had the good fortune of having most restaurants (patios anyway) open for near the entirety of covid. But they all seemed to have their period of rotating shut down when a small staff outbreak of covid hit. It is very costly.

Creating a negative pressure situation (and I am not suggesting perfect hospital type rooms) where you install fans that are pushing more air from the inside to the outside thus requiring new air rush in, I think would be the biggest protection for staff forced to work in doors.

Shoulder to shoulder mask wearing does very little when you are in proximity for a long period of time. They are good for short exposures but air exchange (thus why outdoors is better) is the best defense.

I understand all that. My question is whether restaurant owners would implement this sort of thing voluntarily. I doubt it.

Agreed, since they could have done it and did not, here.

It was the first thing I thought of that I would do as someone who has considered getting back in to the restaurant business one day.

I was always amazed when certain restaurants went to the expense of setting up patios during covid but then tented them in, in a way that made air circulation worse than inside the restaurant.

It is if they thought it was merely being 'outdoors' even if you were indoors, outdoors was the goal.

Many people seem incapable of discerning that the reason why Antifa mass protests had almost no covid super spreader connections was people outside and in motion. thus the concentration of an infected persons exhalations was not present.

It was one of my first conclusion in the first wave. And as I walked the seawall here almost nightly during limited lockdowns, some times with very busy boardwalks, i had little fear of catching it as we were outdoors and moving. The thing I tried to avoid was not staying behind the same person (downwind) for any prolonged period of time, moving or not.

Nothing is without risk but it certainly has been shown that is what minimizes risk.

Pretty sure the nurse spreading COVID disinfo is the scumbag here.

I appreciate that you are "anti-BigPharm".

I also believe that YOU believe some of the anti-vax material that is all over the net. That is your prerogative.

Post real science, real facts (w/links to peer-reviewed research) and you should be OK. Post "real data" that has been refuted over and over again..... you may have to sit in a corner for awhile.

Not disagreing with most of that very much. We need to minimise the dirtyness, maximise the help to everyone and move forward as best as we can.

The trolls etc are not part of that disporportionately to thier numbers just because they are noisy. The divisive ones are a part of the problem - both current and future.

Don't get misled by the trolls in rando threads on the internet on both sides as mattering beyond the silliness of those threads. There are a few threads on this forum, some in moderated forums and some in unmoderated, and you will see all sorts of silly agenda based massaged data along with doomsday fetish fantasies and unqualified people suggesting they are using their personal brand of common sense. Others will harshly mock those people in those threads.

However when you leave those totally meaningless threads the systemic approach that has been taken to tackle this pandemic has been impressive, with some valid to debate choices made along the way. The trolls and cloudscreamers do not factor much in that at all, because those interactions do not matter. Trying to make those micro interactions friendlier is pretty much a waste of time, so that is why the ones organizing the logistics try to think of ways to market it to get a few more people to evaluate the situation. Go from 50 to 55% type thing, knowing a good chunk will be derps that go with the delta variant of immunization, and of those some will have Darwin award stories about them.

I dont get mislead by the trolls or the silly name callers about these parts. Apart from pointing out to others that they do not represent the left or progressives (or anyone much), they are too fringe to matter. But in the bigger world than these forums social media is a massive issue. One that is beginning to be tackled.


The vaccine response has beenvery good in many places. The polarisation/divisiveness in some countries has been a hindrence to that effort and a continuing cause of many problems - USA being the obvious example. Much less so in the Uk but we have to resist going the way of the usa and it would be very good to see the usa pull back fom the brink.

Sounds good. Thanks.

so the World Health Organization warns not to mix vaccines.

https://www.reuters.com/business/hea...es-2021-07-12/


Yet countries like Canada are ignoring this to get more folks vaccinated. I am one of those guinea pigs with the AZ & Pfizer

Disagreeing is a lot different than ignoring.

I've got Pfizer and Moderna, and am not at all worried.

But it does speak to a lot of this being an experiment in real time.

Much of the info typically learned in trials over years we will see shake out and answered in the next few months and years but instead of with a control group vaccinated, most of the populace.

I do not say that to suggest wrong. Just to note it is a fact.

For sure...we knew the quicker timeline in getting vaccines out would mean that we don't have as much data as we normally would. That's the price we pay for having vaccines available so quickly, and it's a tradeoff most of us are good with.

And Lozen's not wrong that the mixing-and-matching is to facilitate getting through second doses quicker. It's not been done without any data or science behind it, but likely not nearly as much as they would normally have before making such a recommendation.

Currently in the US ~99.5% of all deaths are people who have not had Covid vaccinations. At the current rate of deaths (200/day) that would mean that about 70,000 non-vaccinated people will die in the next year. That would roughly be the equivalent of the worst Flu year.

But the death rate will likely double 3 weeks from now as it has doubled from 3 weeks ago. And unless states do something about it, will keep going up. States may ultimately have to do something about it because hospitals could come to a threshold like what happened in NYC in April of last year. And people could start dying unnecessarily due to a lack of available medical treatment.

I don't know if this has been posted here but there is a CNN Piece that shows clips of Fox News hosts denigrating the Covid vaccines. For whatever reason I can't insert it but it is currently on CNN.com news page

What is amazing to me is that while the Republican party is trying to suppress the vote of people likely to vote Democratic, Fox news and other right wing news outlets, are trying to convince people to not get vaccines, to not let the government go door to door to try to give Covid vaccines then and there (because soon they will come for your guns and bibles).

In the state of TN they have fired the person in charge of vaccines for the state who was trying to get young people to get vaccinated for Covid (based on current TN health law) and the state of TN has now suspended all efforts to promote vaccinating children (any vaccine).

The people who are dying of Covid now are likely overwhemingly Republican and of voting age. Trying to be saved by a President who is a Democrat.

The level of stupidity by these media outlets is overwhelming to me. How can they not see this as an opportunity to save the lives of future Republican voters. While at the same time giving the credit to Donald Trump who expedited the creation of the vaccine while he was President.

I think the current conservative media's role in the ecosystem isn't as much about controlling the landscape, as it is about who is best at exploiting the sentiments that rise to the top in the landscape of social media pundits and influencers. I suspect it is about analysts looking at hashtags, shares , like / dislike / reply ratios and engagement statistics.

A long time of feeding doubts about other media has become "you make the bed you lie in". The viewers are just as likely to distrust and abandon them if they don't get the stories they want, and there is always another media company around the corner waiting to get those viewers.

And yes, of course one should hope that there was some limit, that people dying by the bucket-load should be enough for at least some nuance. But perhaps the truth is that a lot of the people capable of delivering that are long gone.

As much as I agree with you on what the conservative media is doing is so wrong. The same could be said about the Democratic media that hides Biden's failures or barely covers them. Instead continuing to focus its resources on Trump.