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Covid-19 Discussion Covid-19 Discussion

09-05-2020 , 01:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lozen
You gotta give Trump credit no one seems to be talking about a 1000 deaths a day average.

One thing we are seeing in Canada is some of the folks that get covid and the long term effects still lingering
Yup.

The things Trump and Co don't want anyone focused on:

- There continued attempts to loot and destroy social security and Medicare
- There continued attempts to end ObamaCare and strip pre-existing conditions protections
- The Corona Virus death toll and bungled handling


The thing Trump and Co want everyone talking about

- race dynamics in America



Trump and Co got crushed in the Midterms when real issues like Healthcare and Pre-existing conditions were the focus despite his best attempts to make it about race and the Brown menace coming up from S.America.

This time they have been better at whipping up a new Brown Menace threat (this time US citizens are the 'other') and keeping many American's focused on that but will it be enough.
09-08-2020 , 01:32 PM
09-09-2020 , 03:42 PM
TRump WAs Just LISTeNINg TO HiS ADVIsErs AND dOIng whAT tHeY SAID.

Quote:
A Trump administration appointee at the Department of Health and Human Services is trying to prevent Anthony Fauci, the government’s top infectious disease expert, from speaking about the risks that coronavirus poses to children.
...
Alexander’s lengthy messages, some sent as recently as this week, are couched as scientific arguments. But they often contradict mainstream science while promoting political positions taken by the Trump administration on hot-button issues ranging from the use of convalescent plasma to school reopening.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/0...e-fauci-410861
09-09-2020 , 04:51 PM
For good or bad the more mainstream science decides to wade into political issues and embrace SJW causes, the more partisan and less credible it is going to seem for the large segment of the population with differing political ideologies.

Scientists of course are free to couch their political opinions as professional expertise; but there are costs to doing so. I think all the scientists and public health officials supporting the massive protests in the middle of a pandemic was a real turning point where a lot of people decided the mainstream scientific community was just activists and tuned them out.
09-09-2020 , 04:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelhus100
I think all the scientists and public health officials supporting the massive protests in the middle of a pandemic was a real turning point where a lot of people decided the mainstream scientific community was just activists
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Yeah it's not like Kelhus and his ilk have had this view since scientists first started saying "hey maybe burning fossil fuels isn't great for the planet" or anything like that, the real turning point was *checks notes* the COVID-19 pandemic lolololololol
09-10-2020 , 03:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PuttingInTheGrind
I haven't really looked into it but I believe there are something like 10 countries with a higher death per 1 million of population, compared to the US.
Quote:
Originally Posted by goofyballer
Why cite this statistic? The USA is within a few weeks of passing several European countries that are ahead of it, because the USA's deaths per million is increasing at a rate of like 3 per day while ~all of Europe is seeing <1. Are you going to change your tune when the USA passes these European countries and is the clear leader among large, developed countries in deaths per capita? I'm guessing you won't.
In news that anyone with a brain could see coming, the USA has passed Italy (remember when they had the worst results in the world?) and Sweden in deaths per capita since I wrote the above post ~10 days ago. The only large, developed nations still doing worse than us are the UK and Spain (we are, of course, still gaining on them); the other 8 countries are Andorra, Belgium, San Marino, and five South American nations.

Or, as Donald Trump would put it, "if you look at our fatality numbers compared to other countries, we are in really -- I mean, it's amazing, what we've done"!

09-10-2020 , 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelhus100
I think all the scientists and public health officials supporting the massive protests in the middle of a pandemic
This did not happen. Maybe you wish "they" did...... but supporting the "massive" protests by scientists.....cmon, kel, that is just terrible spin.
09-10-2020 , 12:08 PM
Quote:
Or, as Donald Trump would put it, "if you look at our fatality numbers compared to other countries, we are in really -- I mean, it's amazing, what we've done"!
Technically he is telling the truth Its amazing how badly they have done
09-10-2020 , 01:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Spew
This did not happen. Maybe you wish "they" did...... but supporting the "massive" protests by scientists.....cmon, kel, that is just terrible spin.
We have already gone over this. It happened. 1300 health "professionals" signed this letter. Practically no one in the scientific community criticized it. You want it to be one way, but it is the other way. This is activism, it isn't science. Every health official has the right to put on their activist hat when they feel the situation dictates, but it is going to come at a cost to the perception they are straight shooting when they talk about Covid in the future, and they have to accept that.

--For example the racialized language (eg. emphasizing that the protests they condone were mostly white protesters) is absolutely sickening and has no place in science IMO. None of these people have the slightest amount of credibility to me because of their inability to understand how wrong it is for health professionals to be engaging in this kind of activism. It is what is is.

"Open letter advocating for an anti-racist public health response to demonstrations against systemic
injustice occurring during the COVID-19 pandemic
On April 30, heavily armed and predominantly white protesters entered the State Capitol building in Lansing,
Michigan, protesting stay-home orders and calls for widespread public masking to prevent the spread of
COVID-19. Infectious disease physicians and public health officials publicly condemned these actions and
privately mourned the widening rift between leaders in science and a subset of the communities that they
serve. As of May 30, we are witnessing continuing demonstrations in response to ongoing, pervasive, and
lethal institutional racism set off by the killings of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor, among many other Black
lives taken by police. A public health response to these demonstrations is also warranted, but this message
must be wholly different from the response to white protesters resisting stay-home orders. Infectious disease
and public health narratives adjacent to demonstrations against racism must be consciously anti-racist, and
infectious disease experts must be clear and consistent in prioritizing an anti-racist message.
White supremacy is a lethal public health issue that predates and contributes to COVID-19. Black
people are twice as likely to be killed by police compared to white people, but the effects of racism are far more
pervasive. Black people suffer from dramatic health disparities in life expectancy, maternal and infant mortality,
chronic medical conditions, and outcomes from acute illnesses like myocardial infarction and sepsis. Biological
determinants are insufficient to explain these disparities. They result from long-standing systems of oppression
and bias which have subjected people of color to discrimination in the healthcare setting, decreased access to
medical care and healthy food, unsafe working conditions, mass incarceration, exposure to pollution and noise,
and the toxic effects of stress. Black people are also more likely to develop COVID-19. Black people with
COVID-19 are diagnosed later in the disease course and have a higher rate of hospitalization, mechanical
ventilation, and death. COVID-19 among Black patients is yet another lethal manifestation of white supremacy.
In addressing demonstrations against white supremacy, our first statement must be one of unwavering support
for those who would dismantle, uproot, or reform racist institutions.
Staying at home, social distancing, and public masking are effective at minimizing the spread of
COVID-19. To the extent possible, we support the application of these public health best practices during
demonstrations that call attention to the pervasive lethal force of white supremacy. However, as public health
advocates, we do not condemn these gatherings as risky for COVID-19 transmission. We support them as vital
to the national public health and to the threatened health specifically of Black people in the United States. We
can show that support by facilitating safest protesting practices without detracting from demonstrators’ ability to
gather and demand change. This should not be confused with a permissive stance on all gatherings,
particularly protests against stay-home orders. Those actions not only oppose public health interventions, but
are also rooted in white nationalism and run contrary to respect for Black lives. Protests against systemic
racism, which fosters the disproportionate burden of COVID-19 on Black communities and also
perpetuates police violence, must be supported.
Therefore, we propose the following guidance to support public health:
● Support local and state governments in upholding the right to protest and allow protesters to gather.
● Do not disband protests under the guise of maintaining public health for COVID-19 restrictions.

● Advocate that protesters not be arrested or held in confined spaces, including jails or police vans, which
are some of the highest-risk areas for COVID-19 transmission.

● Oppose any use of tear gas, smoke, or other respiratory irritants, which could increase risk for COVID-
19 by making the respiratory tract more susceptible to infection, exacerbating existing inflammation,

and inducing coughing.
● Demand that law enforcement officials also respect infection prevention recommendations by
maintaining distance from protesters and wearing masks.
● Reject messaging that face coverings are motivated by concealment and instead celebrate face
coverings as protective of the public’s health in the context of COVID-19.
● Prepare for an increased number of infections in the days following a protest. Provide increased access
to testing and care for people in the affected communities, especially when they or their family
members put themselves at risk by attending protests.
● Support the health of protesters by encouraging the following:
○ Use of face coverings.
○ Distance of at least 6 feet between protesters, where possible.
○ Demonstrating consistently alongside close contacts and moving together as a group, rather
than extensively intermingling with multiple groups.
○ Staying at home when sick, and using other platforms to oppose racism for high-risk individuals,
and those unable or uncomfortable to attend in person.

● Encourage allies who may wish to facilitate safe demonstrations through the following:
○ Providing masks, hand-washing stations, or hand sanitizer to demonstrators.
○ Providing eye protection, such as face shields or goggles, for protection against COVID-19 and
chemical irritants used to disperse crowds.
○ Bringing wrapped, single-serving food or beverages to sustain people protesting.
○ Providing chalk markings or other designations to encourage appropriate distancing between
protesters.
○ Supplying ropes, which can be knotted at 6-foot intervals, to allow people to march together
while maintaining spacing.
○ Donating to bail funds for protesters
● Listen, and prioritize the needs of Black people as expressed by Black voices.
These are strategies for harm reduction. It is our sincere hope that all participants will be able to follow these
suggestions for safer public demonstrations, assisted by allies where possible and necessary, but we
recognize that this may not always be the case. Even so, we continue to support demonstrators who are
tackling the paramount public health problem of pervasive racism. We express solidarity and gratitude toward
demonstrators who have already taken on enormous personal risk to advocate for their own health, the health
of their communities, and the public health of the United States. We pledge our services as allies who share
this goal.
This letter is signed by 1,288 public health professionals, infectious diseases professionals, and
community stakeholders."
09-10-2020 , 01:19 PM
Did I have a post deleted? I thought I made a post after #2959, but am really not sure if it was ninja deleted or I never actually made the post.
09-10-2020 , 01:25 PM
You never made the post.
09-10-2020 , 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EADGBE
You never made the post.
Ok, thanks. I have been in this spot under WN and had it go both ways; although for good or bad you guys seem better about infracting/warning me when you delete a post so it is more obvious that is what happened .
09-10-2020 , 02:06 PM
You have made 2,582 that should have been deleted.

Lol at claiming scientists were promoting protests. You are so full of dirty bath water.
09-10-2020 , 02:41 PM
Scientist signing that a health crisis in America can not be compared to a political rally in regards to COVID precautions.

Yeah, I guess that is a great reason to lose faith in health professionals. Suggesting that the race problem in America is not a problem is what kel seems to be leading us toward. Meanwhile in the letter "Protests against systemic racism, which fosters the disproportionate burden of COVID-19 on Black communities and also perpetuates police violence, must be supported."

It is a huge leap to say the scientists support all the looting and destruction that has happened....which is CLEARLY what kel wants the letter to say.
09-10-2020 , 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Spew
v
It is a huge leap to say the scientists support all the looting and destruction that has happened....which is CLEARLY what kel wants the letter to say.
So now you are a mind reader. We are playing that game now, where you make up what I believe and then tell me the made up beliefs are wrong?
09-10-2020 , 02:51 PM
So you are agreeing that systemic racism is not a health crisis? Or in your mind, no crisis is worse than COVID and that all things related to stopping the COVID should be done immediately.... with all other problems put on the back burner.
09-10-2020 , 02:52 PM
to answer directly about reading your mind...... pretty easy actually. You are an open book. But I just wanna see it from your own keyboard....

Are you suggesting that it is a bad thing to support a group trying to end systemic racism?

Last edited by King Spew; 09-10-2020 at 03:01 PM.
09-10-2020 , 03:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Spew
So you are agreeing that systemic racism is not a health crisis? Or in your mind, no crisis is worse than COVID and that all things related to stopping the COVID should be done immediately.... with all other problems put on the back burner.
I don't think it is the place of public health experts to say in their official capacity this protest is ok because these protesters are protesting something important, and this protest isn't ok because these protesters aren't.

That is making a value judgement and activism.
09-10-2020 , 03:14 PM
they are commenting on a health issue in America.
09-10-2020 , 03:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Spew
to answer directly about reading your mind...... pretty easy actually. You are an open book. But I just wanna see it from your own keyboard....

Are you suggesting that it is a bad thing to support a group trying to end systemic racism?
"Systemic racism" is a political term that has no concrete definition and isn't quantifiable. I think people engaged in science have no business using the term at all.

Scientists should be focused on things they can measure that may be linked to disparate health outcomes; eg. race, sex, age, blood pressure, diabetes, BMI, socioeconomic status, air/water quality, etc. And make scientific hypothesis what quantifiable determinants may be associate with or causal towards poor outcomes, and develop controlled experiments to test those hypothesis.

Then politicians and social scientists can make political determinations that "systemic racism" is an upstream societal malady contributing towards the proximate causes, that can be addressed at the policy level. And hopefully said politicians and social scientists have the ability and capacity to honestly assess whether their policy prescriptions are working or not, although I have seen no evidence this ever happens.
09-10-2020 , 03:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Spew
they are commenting on a health issue in America.
If they are using terms like "systemic racism" they are commenting as activists, not scientists.
09-10-2020 , 03:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelhus100
"Systemic racism" is a political term that has no concrete definition and isn't quantifiable. I think people engaged in science have no business using the term at all.

Scientists should be focused on things they can measure that may be linked to disparate health outcomes; eg. race, sex, age, blood pressure, diabetes, BMI, socioeconomic status, air/water quality, etc. And make scientific hypothesis what quantifiable determinants may be associate with or causal towards poor outcomes, and develop controlled experiments to test those hypothesis.

Then politicians and social scientists can make political determinations that "systemic racism" is an upstream societal malady contributing towards the proximate causes, that can be addressed at the policy level. And hopefully said politicians and social scientists have the ability and capacity to honestly assess whether their policy prescriptions are working or not, although I have seen no evidence this ever happens.
With your poor science background and desire to view everything in terms of mindless left/right identity politics isn't it more likely that the science is just going over your head?
09-10-2020 , 11:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelhus100
If they are using terms like "systemic racism" they are commenting as activists, not scientists.
Systemic racism is quantified, measured and tested and proven. It is science. And it is a public health issue.
09-11-2020 , 04:12 PM
So I spoke to my uncle today who's retired from FDNY, big Trump fan who basically thinks the current Covid #'s are fake but is willing to believe that 100k might be true as is perfectly acceptable. He was also saying that people shouldn't hide or avoid this and everyone will have to get it at some point.

He also mentioned this article mostly focusing on the crime portion. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/10/n...ronavirus.html
09-13-2020 , 11:30 AM
From what I know, the following is a paraphrase of an opinion piece that is going to be posted in the upcoming addition of the New England Journal of Medicine. I do not think the science behind the info has been vetted yet..... but since NEJM printed it... at least give it a thought.

Wearing a homemade mask MAY have a benefit to you, the wearer.

We know that a homemade mask will somewhat protect others but not the wearer (vs an N95 mask which protects both ). New thought being tossed around by leading epidemiologists is that homemade masks may capture the virus in small quantities.... and pass on to the wearer even smaller amounts of the virus.

The NOT PROVEN thinking is that these tiny passed-on particles may be introducing the COVID in such small quantities that the disease can't infect the wearer BUT the wearer over time (with continued very small intake levels) may achieve "some" level of protection. Kinda like mini vaccines.

      
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