I don't think these are equivalent. Someone being Korean or having cancer is something that can be objectively determined by an observer. Someone being trans is completely subjective (in their mind).

Do you believe that anyone has ever gone through getting puberty blockers, hormonal treatments, or gender reassignment surgery without feeling seriously unhappy about their lives? I believe they would not voluntarily go through these things without having a "negative mental state".

this

So?

So it may be possible to change by working with the brain. Also, someone may believe they are trans but be mistaken, or only temporarily correct.

So? The same things could be said of depression or many other psychological disorders. We shouldn’t treat patients having depression because they *might* spontaneously change or just “be mistaken?”

No, my point is that we should treat trans people, just like we treat depression, with psychological means. If someone tells a doctor they are depressed because they have legs, the first thing tried should not be to cut his legs off.

Thing is, trans people are mistaken and we can prove it scientifically.

This is exactly right. The whole woke agenda now is that the moment a kid says for the first time he or she “feels” they are the other gender they act like we have to start giving them life-altering drugs immediately. There is no time to waste. They never stop and check in with the kid to make sure the kid even knows what that means let alone figure out if that’s what the precious child really wants.

But they were both diagnosed with schizophrenia because at least at one point, they did have symptoms which were impairing to them. Trans people don't have to ever experience periods of impairment. Because again, being trans isn't a mental illness.

Did you think that having a mental illness means you are forever impaired? Because if not, why is it relevant to point out that people with mental illnesses can have productive periods in their lives?

They do -- they're at higher risk of depression. But old white men also commit suicide at higher than average rates -- is being an old white man a mental illness? Gay people die by suicide at an increased rate -- is being gay a mental illness? Clearly your argument that "given X is associated with a higher rate of suicide, therefore X is a mental illness," just doesn't hold up.

We tried conversion therapy for gay people too but that doesn't actually work. And no one is given hormones or surgeries the day they announce they are trans. Nothing happens that fast. Doctors actually evaluate patients to understand where they are coming from and see how they were living their lives before showing up to the office.

I don't think it would be the same thing as conversion therapy for homosexuality (although I believe that did "work" some of the time). But that was the more drastic choice (as opposed to doing nothing). For trans people, psychiatric measures are the less drastic choice.
If a gay man had the options of conversion therapy or castration, I would definitely recommend he try the conversion therapy first, even if it were a long shot to work.

That's good that (if?) doctors are evaluating them first, but at the least they should also be evaluated by a psychiatrist, not just an MD.

Well, we have the words that we have that mean what they mean.

You can use whatever words you like, but you don't get to include any of the connotations of the replaced words when using your new terminology.



In this case you would be trying to change a major sense of self trait (trait being different than state) to the opposite. Removing the hypothalamus and part of the ventromedial prefrontal cortex might work (not sure), but would have some major side effects. It wouldn't be a particularly popular treatment option. Most people consider their sense of self to be precious.

Happy pills are ok, as is talk therapy to develop coping skills. Might work for some people. Doesn't seem remotely like it fixes the underlying problem. Kind of like giving Ozempic to starving people to make them feel less hungry.

As an aside, it is all fairly complex since people's personalities aren't standardized. What might be best for one person might not be for the next. The person under the advice of med/psych professionals are really the only ones qualified to make the decision on what is best for the person. For some, talking therapy might be perfectly acceptable. For others, reassignment surgery. For others, something in between. It seems fairly rude and unwise to have a strong opinion on what they (as a group of individuals) should all do.

Pretty much. It’s amazing that the mods let the gimmick account have free rein in these threads. On an other hand, I guess if not for them then this site would be a ghost town so ymmv.

Well, obviously I disagree with this, at least partially because I have no such "sense of self", and I have not had a partial lobotomy.

I agree with you that it should be decided by the individual, under the advice of medical and psychiatric professionals. With the caveat that our society doesn't generally give minors the power to make any major life or health decisions, so nothing medical should be done until the individual is of the age of consent.

I do not have a strong opinion about whether or not any particular individual should or should not have reassignment surgery, or any other medical treatments. I do feel strongly that the less drastic/permanent measures should be tried first, and the least drastic measure is psychiatric treatment.

I'm rethinking it. Generally rigid categorical thinking and tantrums (in adults) are strongly associated with autism, but it could also just be simple-mindedness. More data is needed.

His other example was equally bad. Saks attributes her functioning to talking therapy, meds and social support.

So, he gave precisely zero examples. Since he didn't elaborate with an argument there is actually no point actually made.

Ummm. Do you know what ANY of those words mean?!?

I’m simply showing you how others with a serious mental illness have led seemingly normal, successful lives.

Ok, then how about believing something that can easily be proven to be untrue? If any patient told a psychiatrist that he believes he is a werewolf, we’d call that a delusion. We could also easily prove without any doubt that the person is not a werewolf. Same with a man who says, “I’m really a woman trapped in a man’s body.” Easy enough to disprove that.

You’re lying. I posted earlier a website from a clinic that states they do exactly that, start meds immediately.
See post 2705. Seven clinics admitted to doing it.

This place is a ghost town precisely because the mods have let these turbo-posting dipshits overrun every thread.

One of the reasons I don't believe Dr. Fakey is a doctor is his rigidity.
Meisner rigidly believes all clinics operate the same way, prescribe irreversible drugs immediately upon request and that that his one size solution is a cure all for treating people outside his area of expertise. Most doctors I know don't talk in terms of such certainty and absolutism. Most admit their limitations and give some level of respect to the opinions of those that practice in that speciality.

You are gansta both speak like doctors who adhere to accepted communal best practices and recognize the uncertainty of resolving a multifaceted, complex set of problems with one simple solution.

I've had a few surgeries because I believed that I was an athlete. I was not particularly unhappy about my life. Just wanted a limb that matched my self-perception.

It was a little bit over a year of recovery and for over half of that year I was almost completely nonfunctional in many aspects of daily living. Far more extensive recovery and loss of function than if I had wanted one less penis.

I was not mentally ill at the time. I was just willing to go through something difficult to get what I wanted.

Of course, I enjoy having a penis (it brings joy to the masses), so it would take a lot for me to want it removed. If I didn't want it, my opinion would be quite a bit different.