Conservatives: What are your principles? - Page 44 - Politics and Society -- Two Plus Two Poker Forums

Hahahahahaah, this guy just called me deceptive for making a clear argument about Texas not being part of "the South" like he was arguing, and now he's throwing down a map that puts Texas in the Southwest.

Nuance MrWookie. I could explain to you how Texas is the mesh between the southwest and southern US, but if the slanted lines on the pictures were not enough, I doubt I could educate you any better.

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10-17-2019 , 05:54 PM

#1077

itshotinvegas

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Rococo

Do you even understand your own argument? If you include CA as a Southwestern state, then your argument that the South is the most diverse is even dumber because California is the most diverse state in the country.

Also, who gives a **** which region has the most people? You were arguing about which geographic region was the most diverse. Population is irrelevant to that question.

If we were arguing about whether Utah or Texas was more arid, would you say that the answer should be Texas because Texas has more people than Utah.

I'm sorry I should of drawn a line. I thought it went without saying that the most densely populated areas tend to be the most diverse (big cities). The southern states has scaled diversity across almost it's entire population and geography, same can't be said about the southwest, where it's essentially centralized.

Last edited by itshotinvegas; 10-17-2019 at 06:04 PM.

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10-17-2019 , 05:58 PM

#1078

itshotinvegas

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelhus999

Itshot

Wookie has nothing to say. He is just a troll.

You actually have stuff to say. People can agree or (mostly) disagree, but there is something there. But when you engage him in these endless arguments about nothing, it completely defeats the purpose, and tends to ruin threads.

This is Rocco's doing, this time. I mean, I'm not getting any great pleasure out this particular conversation, but I'm not the one finding fault with such an uncontroversial claim as the south is the most diverse region in the country, and even if it's close with the southwest US, I really do not understand why Rocco has such contempt for it, because the south is pretty damn well diverse, either way.

Which, if you remember, was used to counter your point that less diverse places are more welcoming. Futher, the conversation with Clovis was no less nauseating, with the constant stream of false and overly broad characterizations.

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10-17-2019 , 05:59 PM

#1079

Rococo

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Quote:

Originally Posted by itshotinvegas

I'm sorry I should of drawn a line. I thought it went without saying that the most densely populated areas tend to be the most diverse (big cities).

That's mostly true, of course, although I'm not sure it helps your point. The Atlantic seaboard from Maryland on up is more densely populated than the South. The Southwest of course is far less densely populated.

But the relationship between population density and the impact of diversity is probably worth noting.

To the extent diversity is a good thing (and I think it is), it isn't worth as much if the very diverse people live in an area so vast that they hardly ever see each other.

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10-17-2019 , 06:08 PM

#1080

Rococo

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Originally Posted by itshotinvegas

I don't have contempt for anything. And this has nothing to do with defending or bashing the South as far as I am concerned.

You said something that was not factually accurate. I pointed you to contrary information. Then you dug in and simply insisted that you were correct, even after I explained in gory detail why I thought your statement was debatable at best, and more likely just wrong.

All that said, I don't really give a **** about this specific question, so I'll drop it. But people need to learn how to walk it back when they say something off the cuff that isn't correct.

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10-17-2019 , 06:12 PM

#1081

itshotinvegas

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Rococo

As with everything, it depends on how you look at it. I said it could be argued the SW is more diverse, but most of it's diversity is centralized among a smaller group of people, where the south's is spread across many more people, and a larger geographic area.

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10-17-2019 , 07:10 PM

#1082

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Originally Posted by itshotinvegas

I guess you could argue the southwest....but:

It's pretty obvious, the south, and southeast is the most diverse.

Are you colorblind or are you calling like CA, NV and NM "the south"? Texas is the only state that's in the highest category there that is arguably "the south" and it's not "the south" like Georgia is, especially not West Texas. Also, metropolitan New York and New Jersey are far more diverse than "the south" and along with California there you're talking about more people than "the south" especially if you split up Texas, which you should.

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10-17-2019 , 07:15 PM

#1083

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Originally Posted by itshotinvegas

CA, NV, NM and AZ are at least as big geographically as the south and have at least as many people. (again West Texas is more SW than "the south").

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10-17-2019 , 07:17 PM

#1084

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Ponied on Texas there.

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10-17-2019 , 07:20 PM

#1085

itshotinvegas

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Originally Posted by microbet

CA, NV, NM and AZ are at least as big geographically as the south and have at least as many people. (again West Texas is more SW than "the south").

The entire southwest, if you include the entire population of Texas, is about 85M, the entire south, if you include the population of Texas is 114M (as of 2010, but checking it's up to 124M, as of 2018).

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10-17-2019 , 08:12 PM

#1086

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Originally Posted by itshotinvegas

South Florida isn't really "the south" either. Half the people are from the NorthEast/Mid-Atlantic. I don't know what states you included.

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10-17-2019 , 08:15 PM

#1087

itshotinvegas

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Originally Posted by microbet

South Florida isn't really "the south" either. Half the people are from the NorthEast/Mid-Atlantic. I don't know what states you included.

What ever, I rather talk about China. (FYI: that would rule out CA and NV, considering many of those folks are not from there, either).

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10-17-2019 , 08:25 PM

#1088

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Originally Posted by itshotinvegas

What ever, I rather talk about China. (FYI: that would rule out CA and NV, considering many of those folks are not from there, either).

And the measure of diversity is probably pretty lame. There are a lot of Black people in southern states. That's Black Americans and white Americans. In CA and NY there are lots of people from maybe 100 different countries. Seems more diverse to me.

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10-18-2019 , 12:58 AM

#1089

markksman

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As someone who was a conservative republican the majority of my life I can distill the current conservative movement to a few things.

Less taxes good. Less brown people good. More Guns good. No abortions good.

This is an all encompassing overview of modern conservative values and covers everything of ANY importance to the modern movement.

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10-18-2019 , 10:16 AM

#1090

Rococo

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Originally Posted by markksman

This is pretty much correct. And even the gun stuff is not a core value. Modern movement would trade it away if it were politically expedient to do so.

I'm tempted to add getting rid of the ACA, but interest seems to have faded on that topic.

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10-18-2019 , 02:31 PM

#1091

Abbaddabba

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tomdemaine

Pragmatic is the antonym of principled. We agree you have no principles and support the traitorous shitstain when it's convenient for you and "denounce" him when it's not convenient. That's the point of the thread.

I think a more reasonable way to look at pragmatism, politically, it is that it shifts the scope of what principles you consider to be worth upholding.

A rigidly principled person might oppose a particular bill because it includes some details they consider undesirable even if it would expedite the legislation of policies that they consider to be desirable and of greater significance.

A pragmatic approach doesn't imply that your only goal is self interest.

Last edited by Abbaddabba; 10-18-2019 at 02:44 PM.

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10-31-2019 , 07:52 AM

#1092

Huehuecoyotl

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A take about how racial innocence is important to the Conservative movement

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...delusion-race/

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11-07-2019 , 10:39 PM

#1093

Huehuecoyotl

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Appeals to a bipartisan interest in defending democracy and the rule of law are a bit more potent. But for the GOP’s core interest groups, it is not at all clear that conservatives have an interest in preserving democratic or constitutional norms at the expense of short-term power (the Democratic coalition’s interest in preserving such norms is much clearer, for reasons outlined below). The party’s plutocratic donor base has long recognized a tension between its vision of good government and popular democracy. And that tension has grown more conspicuous since the 2008 crisis, as millennials have drifted toward socialism, and the GOP toward*an ersatz version of producerist populism.*Charles Koch can*read a poll.*He knows the Trump tax cuts weren’t passed by popular demand. From his wing of the party’s perspective, it’s not clear how protecting norms that enable free and fair elections will keep America off the road to serfdom (a.k.a. social democracy). But it’s quite clear how impeaching an incumbent Republican president with high in-party approval could demoralize the GOP base, and ensure a Democrat’s election in 2020. And it’s also readily apparent that, given another four years, Trump could consolidate conservative control of the courts for a generation, thereby insulating conservative economic orthodoxy against the threat of democratic rebuke.

Why should Republicans support free and fair elections if their ideas are unpopular?

I kind of disagree with the Constitutional norms part. Republicans see the Constitution as a great bulwark against left leaning ideas and that's why they're pushing for the unitary executive, overturning Chevron etc. If they can redefine the Constitution as being synonymous and/or advantageous to Conservative ideas and left leaning groups still pay fielty to the Constitution then the battle is half way won.

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/...rincipled.html

Last edited by Huehuecoyotl; 11-07-2019 at 10:46 PM.

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11-08-2019 , 12:21 PM

#1094

Inso0

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Originally Posted by markksman

As someone who was a conservative republican the majority of my life

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11-09-2019 , 04:29 AM

#1095

lagtight

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I don't believe that hardly any politician in either party gives a hoot or a holler about the Constitution. They'll cite the Constitution for rhetorical effect alone.

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11-09-2019 , 07:52 AM

#1096

Clovis8

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Originally Posted by lagtight

I don't believe that hardly any politician in either party gives a hoot or a holler about the Constitution. They'll cite the Constitution for rhetorical effect alone.

Your constitution is a generally terrible, poorly conceived, document that is treated like religious text in the US. Like the Bible, Americans spend all their time worshiping the idea and little actually reading what it says.

How are your checks and balances, the supposedly genius idea at its core, working out for you right now?

I’m not taking my morality from a 2000 years old book or my law from a 200 year old text. Neither has the slightest idea how the modern world works.

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11-09-2019 , 10:25 AM

#1097

lagtight

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Clovis8

Your constitution is a generally terrible, poorly conceived, document

I believe that my constitution is generally terrific, and brilliantly conceived.

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Like the Bible, Americans spend all their time worshiping the idea and little actually reading what it says.

This is quite correct.

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How are your checks and balances, the supposedly genius idea at its core, working out for you right now?

Overall, pretty well, in my opinion.

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I’m not taking my morality from a 2000 years old book

I am.

Not because it is 2000 years old, but because I believe it is inspired by God.

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or my law from a 200 year old text. Neither has the slightest idea how the modern world works.

The Constitution has an amendment process that keeps it up-to-date on how "the modern world works."

I will grant that amending the Bible would be rather problematic.

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11-09-2019 , 10:53 AM

#1098

Clovis8

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Originally Posted by lagtight

but because I believe it is inspired by God.

Invalidates all other opinions.

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11-09-2019 , 11:02 AM

#1099

lagtight

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Clovis8

Invalidates all other opinions.

How so?

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11-09-2019 , 11:05 AM

#1100

Clovis8

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Originally Posted by lagtight

How so?

Pointless discussion.

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