You can be normal weight and unhealthy because you don't have access to healthy foods. But blaming obesity and overeating on being poor is a terrible argument. It's an educational problem. Food, sugar, carbs are basically a legal drug that our society has commercialized to the fullest extent. You have to seek out good nutritional information and implement it to make a difference in your health. There are many fad diets and pitfalls along the way, even what the government provides is propaganda- the food pyramid.

I stand by this 100%.


Society and government need to amplify that message.

Blast in all forms of media and keep it in peoples faces.

You think it is wrong to say people generally need to be more focused on fitness.... I say NO, that is exactly a roll the gov't and society should play as a minimal way to counter the rapidly growing obesity epidemic.

Good so we're clear. I don't agere with that at all.

I do fully support education, information, support, options etc.

And for the sake of clarity, my position did not improve. What did improve was you actually engaging with what I said whereas prior you were literally ignoring what I said and inputting your own 'demonization' language pretending I said things I did not say or even suggest, out of some type of reflexive defensiveness, designed to shut this type of talk down.

Not only was my position fine but this dialogue is needed and needs to be forced into the community dialogue as much as possible.

It is so bad now, due to tactics to silence everything as shaming that doctors now regularly say they will no longer engage with patients about obesity when that is, for many, the #1 negative health impactor they have.

That is so wrong and those who act like any discussion of this is a personal attack, to silence, are in the wrong.

or maybe the reverse.

Doctors should give objective medical advice and treatment. If they're explaining the health risks/benefits then that all good.

If they're telling people they need to be fitter then of course they should **** off.

I'm a little confused on this issue.

We shame people who smoke or drink too much or risk too much exposure to std's by being careless.

Being obese isn't something that should be normalized for the same reasons. It's not healthy. Obviously people can and will do as they please but why do we need to pretend it's okay ? How does that help anyone ?

And my understanding of why people who are too overweight or too underweight aren't attractive is because health = attractiveness in a biological, evolutionary sense. We're programmed to be attracted to healthy looking people because they're the ones who can reproduce and raise kids.

I do understand that food can be addictive and that any addict will struggle for life with that addiction as they don't go away. They just remain dormant. But that's not an excuse to ride the cycle of addiction to an early grave.

They should be constantly re-enforcing to people that are within or on a path to being included in that obese and unhealthy cohort that they need to find fitness and better diet.

That type of re-enforcement is education and peer pressure and medically sound and all are needed.

The person can then do what they want with that info but at least they will not be acting in ignorance or assuming the doctor does not think their weight is an issue, as he never mentions it.

And using the word 'shame' there is problematic.

Shame may be a result but it should not be the goal.

And I will again draw the apt parallel to mental health and wellness.

We absolutely expect parents, society and teachers, etc to push people (especially children) to optimize their personal outcomes when it comes to mental health and expanding their learning.

All sorts of peer pressure is put on people to 'not settle' and 'always improve' towards an optimal self realization.

Without a doubt a person who is not as smart as others but works as hard or harder may feel shame when the best they can get is a C grade when others easily get A's with a fraction of the work.

That is no reason to not push all kids (people) to continue to strive, to continue to point at what their optimal outcomes are, and to push them.

We know far more of that cohort will benefit long term than those who fail and fall thru the cracks or just choose another path and say f*ck it to your expectations.

And I agree that anyone has the right to say f*ck it, and to sit homeless if they want. But we should never let that person tell society it is wrong to try and set and message these type of expectations.

Just as we should not allow this growing loud chorus of fat acceptance to silence the health message simply because they don't care and are choosing another path.

No of course we dont. Well a few people do but it's generally a very bad thing and they, as I keep politely putting it, can **** off.

We have laws/rules against things like drink driving or smoking in places with other people because it harms other people but even then decent societies have moved way beyond 'shaming.

Nah.
We just do it in a subtle way.

I can't count how many times I've seen someone walk past a smoker and wave their hand or fake cough. That's what you call shaming.

But we can always invent a nicer sounding word for the same concept if you like.

For the record I don't mind if people eat to the point of ruining their health or smoke or drink too much.

I get it. I'm human and have vices too.

But there are consequences and we really don't need to encourage bad habits as a society.

Knowing you're doing something 'wrong' is a first line of defense for not overdoing it.

and many smokers will tell you to **** off (occasionally in some subtle way) if you do that to them.

But in some contexts smoking can be a bit different because it can harm you and others. Try it with a drinker or a fat person.


Sure and education/information are good things

This is where it quickly becomes puritanical nonsense. That's too bad a habit to allow without shaming it as wrong

Meh.

If you're old enough to acquire bad habits you better be old enough to take the flack.

Calling everyone a puritan is exactly as effective as them shaming you.

You don't live in the US right ? We have some pretty horrific smoking ads.

One of my kids smokes. He's a moron. I don't shame him but if others do it's on him.

The flack is a joke. It depends what sort of worlds you want. Some like the puritanical, perfect people, shaming world while I prefer a more civilised reasonable one. We dont have to agree, I'm fine with telling you where to stick it but I aint to going to support your approach. And I'm sure your son is nothing like a moron.

No I live in the Uk and I support telling people the risks of smoking (and being overweight and drinking). As long as they dont inflict it on others then they are then free to decide for themselves without judgement.

It goes beyond.

Some argue we should not even be using positive re-enforcement. Doctors should not be reminding patients that they need to try and eat healthier... lose weight... exercise more.

I totally disagree with that and think doctors and society have a duty to re-enforce those messages.


Continual re-enforcement does work. Not for all but for many, maybe most.

I get that if you have decided "i don't care" "I am choosing another, more self destructive but pleasurable (to me) path" you might not want to hear it, but, really, too bad.

We cannot allow that type of person to silence the needed message.

Oh he's a good kid. He can outlift me at the gym easily too.

But he's still a moron for willingly picking up a habit like that in this day and age where he has all the information available to him.

There's no use it me pretending that's not the case. I do moronic things too.

Civilization doesn't have much to do with your lungs not working anymore.

Or he isn't you.

I do worry about the gym use though. That's a very bad habit.

Nope, he isn't me.

And my bad habits are moronic also.

But yeah, good point. Equating gym use with smoking and obesity.

That means you're pretty much just squawking to be unique.

Which is fine. Even if it's a bad habit.

You're too hard on yourself. If you really dont like your habits than change them but if you examine your life you might find you prefer it with the habits.

We are all unique. Some more so than others

We all like our habits.
That's why a little social pressure can go a long way.

But I do agree that at the end of the day a person has to want to change.
How he gets to that point is what we're debating here I think.

A little social pressure (ie shaming) is fine.

To be clear, I'm not talking about an overt message. I'm talking about what people are bombarded with every day - advertising images, TV, movies, etc. The fashion industry and sizing of women's clothes. And that's ingrained in society; overweight people are looked down upon as unattractive and lazy. You mention anorexia later in your post - what do you think is a big driver of many eating disorders? I believe this is what the "body positive" message is trying to combat - the societal shaming that is leading to anxiety and mental health issues.

Yes, I'm sure that's a big part of it.

It's rather a silly comparison. If our media, TV, and movies were bombarding us with images of unrealistically large women, and skinny women were feeling pressure to gorge themselves on food, had difficulty finding nice clothes that fit, and were being shamed for being skinny, then yes.

This seems like something of a strawman to me. Sort of like when people rail on about how we need to save Christmas from people trying to get rid of it. Yes, we've all seen the occasional story about a "Christmas cancellation" that gets tons of airplay because it's so ridiculous, and I'm sure there are some people that feel the way you mention about weight. But those people are the extreme outliers, and we don't need to make changes based on them.

I sort of get your concerns. When I see the Cosmo pictures you posted that say "this is healthy", that's a message that could backfire a little. Those may be perfectly heathy women, or the healthiest they can be - but if the message received is that being that size is as healthy as being 50 or 100 pounds lighter, that's a potential problem. But there are people for whom weight is a lifelong problem, and for whom it's not as simple as "eat less, exercise more". There's a middle ground here - one where we encourage people to be more healthy, but without going to the point where we're counterproductive by shaming and creating mental health problems. The same motivational approach doesn't work on everyone, and may have the opposite effect on some.

What we're debating is wether the change is for the better. If it's only better because of shaming then that's not a good thing. But sure if you get some satisfaction from a bit of shaming than go for it.

I disagree with shaming as some great force for good but my ,ain objection is to any idea that it's a duty or that government, of far worse medical professionals, are supposed to shame/judge people over these sort of personal choices.

Oh, no. The government and medical professionals can't shame people. That's never going to work.

I get satisfaction from trying to motivate people I care about to do the right thing long term. It's not fun telling your son that he's a moron for smoking, but it's my job to tell him the truth. It may take 20 years for that seed to resurface or maybe it will just wither and never sprout. But planting it is an act of love.

It may be fun telling your buddies they're morons for smoking. But odds are they won't care.

We're near enough to agreement here for a

I also get satisfaction from trying to motivate people to do the right thing. I'm much less keen on deciding what that right thing is for them. Given that, I'm all for the seeds.

Do not let chez conflate societal pressure on society as a whole with individual pressure.

That is a tactic used by individuals to try and dissuade the former which is not only proper for a society to do but needed.

On the whole society should encourage/pressure and push kids (everyone) to maximize their education and learnings.

that said if any individual wants to opt out and take another path that is fine and they should not be directly pressured by society who cannot best understand their individual circumstances.

Same goes for Mental health and well being.

Same goes for Physical health and well being.


No one pushes back on societies role in any except this growing fat acceptance which seems intent to take everything as if a personal affront and thus should not be done.

They are wrong.