British Politics - Page 292 - Politics and Society -- Two Plus Two Poker Forums

Also a weak pound should be a huge boon for our export industry, and when it fell it was indeed spun as a great outcome for our exports.

If our exports are falling with the pound as weak as it is now, that is pure cluster****ery.

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08-18-2022 , 10:36 AM

#7277

diebitter

Grotesquely Handsome

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 65,745

lol you guys think it would all be rosy if we remained.

Pipe dream.

Quote

08-18-2022 , 10:38 AM

#7278

SiMor29

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 4,985

Hahahaha... Please don't blame brexit! It was 6 years ago!

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08-18-2022 , 10:41 AM

#7279

SiMor29

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 4,985

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1

How dare you accuse this utter disaster of being a disaster.

Quote

08-18-2022 , 11:25 AM

#7280

O.A.F.K.1.1

Ted Patrick

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 27,952

Quote:

Originally Posted by diebitter

lol you guys think it would all be rosy if we remained.

Pipe dream.

Such a lazy strawman of a non response.

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08-18-2022 , 11:37 AM

#7281

Elrazor

losing momentum

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 13,862

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1

In what ways, providing evidence, do you think no Brexit would have slowed down our vaccine programme given we would have been perfectly capable of doing everything we did in or out of the EU, and how do you explain UK having such a high death rate over all, higher than Germany, France, Spain and Portugal.

Ignoring for a second that arguing about death tolls when the discussion was about vaccines is

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1

Such a lazy strawman of a non response.

The best available evidence published in The Lancet suggests the UK's excess death toll was lower than most of Europe, and on par with Germany and France and lower than Spain and Portugal.

This was mainly due to our accurate reporting of covid deaths compared to everywhere else, which is also a feature of this report.

Estimating excess mortality due to the COVID-19 pandemic: a systematic analysis of COVID-19-related mortality, 2020–21

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08-18-2022 , 11:57 AM

#7282

O.A.F.K.1.1

Ted Patrick

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 27,952

Its in no way a strawman talking about death tolls when talking about vaccines. Not even remotely.

Quote

08-18-2022 , 12:01 PM

#7283

O.A.F.K.1.1

Ted Patrick

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 27,952

Never mind the crashing exports, never mind the really weak pound (which should be boosting our exports), we did as well or thereabout on Covid with other major European countries, with all policy responses available in or out of EU so its a win for Brexit.

Brexit supporters wonder why people think they are dumb.

Last edited by O.A.F.K.1.1; 08-18-2022 at 12:15 PM.

Quote

08-18-2022 , 12:09 PM

#7284

jalfrezi

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 13,120

Quote:

Originally Posted by diebitter

Jalfrezi - would you be ok if Brits had suffered the same death rates as the EU when they were messing up their covid program?

Just wondering.

A straight 'yes' or 'no' will be fine.

No, because the EU is 27 countries and the UK, as one of the wealthiest nations in the world, should be dong a lot better than their average.

Death rates across Europe were higher than necessary because of a reluctance to shut down. The UK was particularly slow in this regard.

The UK covid death rate is worse than France, Spain, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Portugal, Netherlands, Ireland, Sweden, Denmark etc, so it's a long way behind where it should be. That's all thanks to the government you and people like you voted for and that you're now trying to find excuses for, as always.

Europe covid deaths by country

Last edited by jalfrezi; 08-18-2022 at 12:18 PM.

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08-18-2022 , 12:19 PM

#7285

Elrazor

losing momentum

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 13,862

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1

Its in no way a strawman talking about death tolls when talking about vaccines. Not even remotely.

Doesn't matter as I refuted the argument anyway.

The UK being out of the EU saved actual people's lives by getting our vaccine production up and running earlier, and approving it faster.

There are literally people alive in the UK today who would be dead if we had stayed in the EU.

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08-18-2022 , 12:20 PM

#7286

jalfrezi

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 13,120

Add this to the dieshitter list of Brexit benefits:

Sewage: Sussex beaches closed

Beaches in East Sussex have been closed after untreated wastewater was released into the sea at the shoreline.

Beaches in Bexhill and Normans Bay were shut after "significant" electrical issues at a pumping station.

In neighbouring Hastings, the borough council also advised people from swimming at Pelham Beach due to a pollution risk.

Last edited by jalfrezi; 08-18-2022 at 12:34 PM.

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08-18-2022 , 12:39 PM

#7287

O.A.F.K.1.1

Ted Patrick

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 27,952

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrazor

We could have done all of the above if we were still in the EU.

The EU might have made some sub optimal decisions, but would have no legal or organisational pathway to insist the UK followed its approach to vaccines if it was a still a member, if it did or did not would have been entirely up to the UK.

https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-vaccine-brexit/

Quote

08-18-2022 , 12:47 PM

#7288

jalfrezi

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 13,120

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrazor

This was mainly due to our accurate reporting of covid deaths compared to everywhere else,

Ah ok, it's cheating foreigners again. Definitely not xenophobic, though.

Coming over here...taking our jobs...committing violent crime... marrying our women...now counting deaths incorrectly.

Quote

08-18-2022 , 12:52 PM

#7289

SiMor29

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 4,985

haha i ****ing love the dumb twat suggestion that the UK got their vaccine out quick smart.

Quote

08-18-2022 , 02:35 PM

#7290

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 47,070

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrazor

It's interesting how the figures changed and shows the folly of taking short term figures too seriously, Not because anyone was lying but there's no standard on how to count a covid death and different, waves hit at different times in different places.

I'm not at all convinced being out of the EU mattered but I think it's pretty clear we did very well on the vaccine rollout. The intital policy was very good all round imo. It's a tragically sad indightment of hancock and then boris and sunak that we messed execution (and later policy) up so badly that we're not way ahead in the excess death figures. The vaccine was massive and overall we squandered it.

Quote

08-18-2022 , 02:47 PM

#7291

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 47,070

Quote:

Originally Posted by diebitter

I voted against it. I think it's a bad idea.

But keep making your dumb as **** generalisations and misrepresentations, it's good to make sure any new joiners to the forum know who the biggest moron is.

This is why I put so much of the onus on the left. Nationalisation is popular, even to the extent that many tory members are sympathetic to temporary nationalisation

There is only one reason nationalisation of energy isn't top and center of the agenda. Labour aren't pushing for it. Not only is it desperatly needed but the opportunity is ripe and it's a vote winner that even the tories might have to address if there was polical pressure.

It's tragic

Quote

08-18-2022 , 03:28 PM

#7292

57 On Red

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 5,906

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1

We could have done all of the above if we were still in the EU.

This is correct.

Quote

08-18-2022 , 05:05 PM

#7293

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 47,070

#The debate isn't about 'could'. It's about 'would'

imo the reverse is the case where if it wasn't for brexit the EU would have taken up AZ much faster. The UK was the lead on EU drug policy pre-brexit and and we would have advocated hard for AZ. Of course the EU 'could' still have dropped the ball but I doubt they 'would' have.

If so brexit cost a huge number of lives.

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08-18-2022 , 05:15 PM

#7294

SiMor29

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 4,985

AZ?

Quote

08-18-2022 , 05:17 PM

#7295

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 47,070

Astra Zeneca

Quote

08-19-2022 , 12:59 AM

#7296

Elrazor

losing momentum

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 13,862

Quote:

Originally Posted by jalfrezi

Ah ok, it's cheating foreigners again. Definitely not xenophobic, though.

Coming over here...taking our jobs...committing violent crime... marrying our women...now counting deaths incorrectly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrazor

Estimating excess mortality due to the COVID-19 pandemic: a systematic analysis of COVID-19-related mortality, 2020–21

You'd have the ask The Lancet, or at least the authors of the article, whether they are NF members, although I doubt it considering it was an international team of scientists who produced the paper.

Quote

08-19-2022 , 01:02 AM

#7297

Elrazor

losing momentum

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 13,862

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1

Could =/= would. Why did so few (if any?) EU member countries not approve vaccines independently?

Quote

08-19-2022 , 01:16 AM

#7298

Elrazor

losing momentum

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 13,862

Quote:

Originally Posted by chezlaw

Thank god there is one rational and reasonable person itt.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It wasn't just the vaccine rollout, it was production. I believe the government bankrolled the mass production of the vaccine around 6 months before it was approved, perhaps even before the RCTs had commenced. There is a good Guardian article on this somewhere.

That the EU badly botched vaccines and the UK did well is a matter of fact. Had we remained in the EU, it's highly likely we would have been tethered to their schemes (e.g., vaccine procurement), and this would likely have led to thousands more excess deaths.

Quote

08-19-2022 , 04:31 AM

#7299

Hoopie1

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 26,109

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrazor

We either were or weren't tethered to their scheme. We weren't, we had the right to opt out.

Quote

08-19-2022 , 04:51 AM

#7300

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 47,070

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrazor

Firstly imo I doubt UK ignores a UK vaccine to be tethered to some EU scheme. Obviously we're in a different world if we had remained and Boris wouldn't have been PM but it's just not the way things work afacis

but my bigger point is that if we still part of the EU then we led medicines and would have advocated hard for AZ which would have been an EU vaccine rather than an external one. There's a very good chance AZ would have been adopted as a key part of the EU scheme and advance production would have been part of that.

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