Who cares about patriotism anyway? It's a horrible notion. Last refuge of the scoundrel etc.

I think husker's word (separatism) is more accurate than patriotism for what I was trying to describe. Wales, Scotland and United Ireland are socialist, working class countries yet we are governed by the tories without a mandate. This is undemocratic and saddles celtic countries with english problems e.g. brexit, the monarchy, zionism, american influence, racism, privatisation, gerrymandering, house of lords, anti-environment, inequality, austerity.

A united Ireland certainly wouldn't be socialist. Irish governments have been right wing for as long as I can remember. But the other two countries, yes of course.

You can make the same case for London, Liverpool etc. Consistently voting left wing, consistently getting Tory governments. Tell me about it.

There's plenty of racism in Ireland and Wales as well as England. Not sure about Scotland.

I was thinking of the IRA strat of 32 county sovereignty and Marxism. I mean racism at the governmental level, not on the street. Rwanda, windrush, small boats or whatever.

Give me a list of reasons why those who oppose seperation don't have Scotland's best interests at heart. Genuine reasons that affect people's lives. I'll then give you a list that shows the opposite when you've responded.

an independent Scotland would be accepted in the EU at record speed though, that matters a lot

Nationalism and patriotism are two different things.

An independent Scotland wouldn't meet the criteria. What does the EU say about membership and currency and what is the SNP's current policy on currency for an independent Scotland (I'm saying current as it tends to change depending on who the audience is).

Also, and I'm asking this as someone who would prefer to be in the EU, what advantages does being a member of the EU bring over the losses that having a hard border etc with the rest of the UK would bring?

Currency rules for new members are vague. They only have to state an intention to join the Euro in the future.

As per usual you have no idea what you're talking about.

Scotland isn't a nation, for a start.

Which isn't part of the plan for an independent Scotland. There is no policy or plan to adopt the Euro.

So they lie the same as other newer EU members? I'm sure the SNP are capable of it!

new members usually want the euro, it's us delaying their entrance because they need to fix local finances first usually

sorry if I believed the literal words used by the British council ( and rugby aficionados)

Can't lie when you're also having to tell the population exactly what the currency will be to get independence in the first place. It's different from countries who already have their own currencies and don't need to set out their plans. The reason the SNP can't say they will adopt the Euro is because they know it is very unpopular.

polls indicate they want to keep the pound even if independent; so they get independence keeping the pound, enter the EU with the pound, then after some decades maybe get the euro

But keeping the pound when independent is pointless. If being independent is all about making your own decisions then it would be pointless to have the currency of another nation you have no connection to. The SNP's (current) policy is to set up a completely new currency, which would be pretty disastrous. That is what SNP members have voted for and that is the policy of the party.

There's no good option for Scottish independence that doesn't necessitate joining the Euro.

Possibly there's no good option at all.

The problem there is you have have heard of something called The Bank Of England (not The Bank Of The UK) which prints and issues sterling and manages interest rates, QE and tries (rather haplessly if my own experiences of that godawful place are anything to go by) to ensure financial stability etc.

That's why the SNP have had different policies on currency as they know there is no good option. Even their current policy is deliberately vague about the timing of creating a new currency.

No it wouldn't. The complications would be considerable. For instance, not having its own currency, IndyScot would be ineligible for membership of the euro, which is a requirement for EU candidate nations. And certain EU member states, notably Spain, are profoundly hostile to secessionist movements, and each and every EU member has the power of veto. And that's before you get into the nightmare of a customs and immigration border between Scotland and England, and the UK's requirement for military bases in Scotland -- the UK is a NATO member with all that that implies (such as naval dockyards, the Trident base and the responsibility for QRA air patrols between Norway and Iceland) and IndyScot wouldn't be.

That didn't work out, and they gave up.

Don't be daft.

They propose to keep the pound, then transition at some unspecified date, and in some unspecified way, to a 'Scottish pound' while still recognising and accepting sterling, which means it won't really be an independent currency. Can't see that working out very well, especially as they will have to assume part of the UK's national debt and they won't have the resources of London, a major economic power all by itself with a population far greater than Scotland's, to pay it off.