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11-23-2020 , 08:11 PM

#2326

SiMor29

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 4,985

Quote:

Originally Posted by chezlaw

Many just didn't wantt o be part of the EU.

Various other reasons as well but sovereignty and control was a huge decisive part of it.

Maybe you're not being cynical enough this time, but let's face it a lot of it is just xenophobic bollocks fomented by small minded spoilt children for whom life didn't work out the way they wanted it to.

Quote

11-23-2020 , 08:15 PM

#2327

SiMor29

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 4,985

Quote:

Originally Posted by chezlaw

Many just didn't wantt o be part of the EU. Various other reasons as well but sovereignty and control was a huge decisive part of it.

And why would they think differently - where have we ever tried to persude them that beign part of the EU is a good thing? Economics and queuing less to go on holiday for a bit is not a serious case.

The economics really should be enough. What else about the EU impacts anyone enough for it not to be? I mean we spent years just trying to find out one single EU law that had negatively impacted upon some of them, and they couldn't come up with anything.

Quote

11-23-2020 , 08:18 PM

#2328

SiMor29

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 4,985

Quote:

Originally Posted by chezlaw

Yes but more embarassing perhaps is the failure of those in favour of the project to argue it was a good project to be part of. The abject capitulation to Murdoch/Mail/ etc was what we should be most embarassed about imo.

Corbyn being a brexiter himself obviously didn't help, but it's not like people weren't making the case. That anything pro-EU and anti-brexit was spun into a project fear narrative that they lapped up like kittens is not the fault of the remain crowd, it's a failure of critical thinking from the brexit crowd.

Quote

11-23-2020 , 08:19 PM

#2329

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 48,685

Quote:

Originally Posted by SiMor29

Plenty of xeophobia underpins it - it's a large part of why some dont want to be part of the EU.

And I'd agree that understanding the role of dissatisfaction is a very important part of politics that we mistn't ignore. I'd strongly object if we blame all the dissatisfaction on the individuals failures - that's far too thatcherite for me to get close to.

Quote

11-23-2020 , 08:22 PM

#2330

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 48,685

Quote:

Originally Posted by SiMor29

The left were long Eurosceptic. Many voted to leave.

There was almost no positive case for being part of the project. This was much discussed at the time (a lot of it by me).

Quote:

Originally Posted by SiMor29

It isn't enough. Whether it shoudl be enough is debatale. You will see many flip on 'economics' when it comes to Scottish independence which should help make clear what bollocks the economic argument are.

Quote

11-23-2020 , 08:29 PM

#2331

SiMor29

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 4,985

Quote:

Originally Posted by chezlaw

Ok I can maybe rephrase it from the individual's failures to a perceived lack of benefits just for existing. The idea that Britain should be catering for mediocre Brits who feel entitled to rewards just for being British, rather than inviting in unworthy foreigners who will do the jobs they see as beneath them for a wage they feel is insulting.

Quote

11-23-2020 , 08:31 PM

#2332

SiMor29

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 4,985

Quote:

Originally Posted by chezlaw

The left were long Eurosceptic. Many voted to leave.

There was almost no positive case for being part of the project. This was much discussed at the time (a lot of it by me).

It isn't enough. Whether it shoudl be enough is debatale. You will see many flip on 'economics' when it comes to Scottish independence which should help make clear what bollocks the economic argument are.

It really is. In the absence of any sort of overriding negative consequence, which we're still waiting to hear about, increased prosperity trumps all else. Who cares what colour our passports are if we are all richer as a result.

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11-23-2020 , 08:33 PM

#2333

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 48,685

Talking to he wrong person. I'm in favour of far more benefits just for existing. It's the moral case for an UBI that I keep trying to make.

I agree about the foreigner bit but that's not the reason they are disatisified (even if some think it is). Can't expect most people to be rational about their emotions

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11-23-2020 , 08:36 PM

#2334

SiMor29

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 4,985

So we all suffer this humiliation because enough of the population are children who will quite happily cut off their nose to spite their face?

I'm back full circle to being embarrassed again.

Quote

11-23-2020 , 08:36 PM

#2335

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 48,685

Quote:

Originally Posted by SiMor29

Maybe you should be right but in fact I'm sure you are wrong. People including me care far more about such issues as democracy and what we are part of than economic arguments.

Including me. I can't imagine what economic argument could have persauded me I didn't want to be part of the EU even if it was credible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SiMor29

So we all suffer this humiliation because enough of the population are children who will quite happily cut off their nose to spite their face?

I'm back full circle to being embarrassed again.

Leavers dont feel humiliated by brexit of course because they dont sahre your premises. It's an odd concept anyway. i dotn fel humiliated (do your eally?), I'm just really pissed off that we managed to lose somethign really important that we should never have lost.

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11-23-2020 , 08:37 PM

#2336

SiMor29

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 4,985

On that note, enough for tonight.

Later.

Quote

11-23-2020 , 08:42 PM

#2337

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 48,685

Sure. It's all too depressing anyway.

Quote

11-24-2020 , 03:23 AM

#2338

diebitter

Grotesquely Handsome

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 66,080

Quote:

Originally Posted by SiMor29

It's embarrassing that brexiters see the EU as an entirely separate entity and not a project that we were actually a pretty ****ing big part of. They talk of the eu as if it's a shadowy cabal of elites making decisions that undermine its member states whom they have tricked into joining and are now bleeding dry.

By George, I think he's got it!

Let me help further, can you tell me, if the EU wasn't a shadowy cabal of elites making decisions that undermine its member states whom they have tricked into joining and are now bleeding dry, how has it acted differently from such a cabal?

Last edited by diebitter; 11-24-2020 at 03:31 AM.

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11-24-2020 , 08:33 AM

#2339

O.A.F.K.1.1

Ted Patrick

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 27,951

Quote:

Originally Posted by diebitter

We have asked you through the whole thread to provide examples of the above accusation, and so far we are still at funeral directors.

You hold the above opinion as an article of faith, not one based on factual rationality.

You have been quick to criticise trumpkins through the American election, however the above post marks you out as being firmly in the glass house.

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11-24-2020 , 09:23 AM

#2340

LektorAJ

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 7,873

Quote:

Originally Posted by SiMor29

Such an embarrassing time to be british. I wonder if there will be genuine contrition and even a bit of humility when project fear becomes lived reality? I suspect not.

Presumably you're even more embarrassed to be pro-EU this week though?

There are huge competence issues with the current UK government, but that's a temporary thing. The EU being deadlocked is a symptom of fundamental structural problems that cannot be eliminated. It's going to be like this all the time from now on.

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11-24-2020 , 09:36 AM

#2341

diebitter

Grotesquely Handsome

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 66,080

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1

We have asked you through the whole thread to provide examples of the above accusation, and so far we are still at funeral directors.

Why does a trade bloc need a parliament (ie a way to transfer power to the centre), a flag, and an anthem again?

These things sure sound like the trappings of a cabal of elites making decisions that undermine its member states.

Quote

11-24-2020 , 09:38 AM

#2342

Hoopie1

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 26,351

Quote:

Originally Posted by LektorAJ

When does the UK government competence issue get resolved?

Quote

11-24-2020 , 09:41 AM

#2343

diebitter

Grotesquely Handsome

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 66,080

When they get voted out.

So I guess the same thing is true of the EU when the voters get to show what they think of the decision-makers.... oh wait.

Quote

11-24-2020 , 10:15 AM

#2344

Hoopie1

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 26,351

I reckon our government will have done a lot more damage to its citizens in four years than the EU will.

Quote

11-24-2020 , 11:08 AM

#2345

diebitter

Grotesquely Handsome

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 66,080

Yeah we'll have a shortage of plaques telling us what the EU did for us (with the little bit of money they deigned to send back to the UK)

Quote

11-24-2020 , 11:11 AM

#2346

O.A.F.K.1.1

Ted Patrick

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 27,951

Quote:

Originally Posted by diebitter

Its hard to think of two terms more juxta posed than Parliament and cabal.

Damn the shadowy secretive Cabal with its live streamed Parliamentary debates.

More faith based observations full of faith based belly feels rhetoric and a vacuum of substantiated factual claims.

Quote

11-24-2020 , 11:15 AM

#2347

O.A.F.K.1.1

Ted Patrick

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 27,951

Shadowy cabal still paying Nigel Farage's pension.

Quote

11-24-2020 , 02:01 PM

#2348

diebitter

Grotesquely Handsome

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 66,080

parliament is there to rubber stamp the cabal's machinations. Keep up.

Quote

11-24-2020 , 02:08 PM

#2349

O.A.F.K.1.1

Ted Patrick

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 27,951

I noticed Nigel Farage doing that, must be so undemocratic if a member who's only policy is its dissolution can be elected to it.

Quote

11-24-2020 , 02:42 PM

#2350

Hoopie1

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 26,351

Quote:

Originally Posted by diebitter

Yeah we'll have a shortage of plaques telling us what the EU did for us (with the little bit of money they deigned to send back to the UK)

Was thinking more of the situations in Kent and the Irish Sea along with the ensuing economic malaise combined with the cronyism and terrible COVID handling, I appreciate it is a lot to get your head around.

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