I am curious about this, since I haven't read many children's books.

What books are being banned that have nothing do to with LGBT issues or other hot button topics, and what are the excuses given?

As a separate issue, I wish we weren't teaching children to be proud of who they are. It makes no sense to be proud of something you did nothing to accomplish, and it can so easily lead to thinking one is better than others.

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https://www.ala.org/advocacy/bbooks/...childrensbooks

That's a nice list, but I'm not going to read all of those. Just wondering what content is bothering some despite not being about LGBT issues or showing children with two parents of the same sex, etc.

Well one specific example we have on our shelf is The Family Book by Todd Parr. It's more for like 2-3 year olds, but basically it shows all sorts of different types of families, including a same-sex parent family. It's a really great book for showing your kid that not all families are the same as your family, and if your family feels different there are all kinds of ways to be different. I don't know what the excuses of the homophobes who banned it were, but other than same-sex families existing there should be nothing controversial about such a book.

I disagree pretty strongly, and certainly try to instill in my children a sense of pride about who they are. Let me see if I can explain. Firstly, we might be disagreeing over word choice more than substance. As in, feeling pride at a specific accomplishment like winning a race is one thing, but I'm using the term quite a bit more broadly. Additionally, pride sometimes has positive and negative connotations (ex connotations of arrogance) like that feeling better than others bit you suggest, which is also not the thing I'm trying to instill in my children and don't believe the values I'm trying to instill do or will lead to that.

Instead, the types of values I'm thinking about here are to be accepting of yourself, not feeling shame or discomfort about the ways in which you are different from other people, being able to walk around comfortable in who you are. We're going to love each other and we are going to love ourselves. Pride here is a sense of self-worth about who they are.

Perhaps I would ask it this way, if you don't want children to feel PROUD of who they are, what word do you suggest instead for: "children should feel ______ of who they are"? Because I don't want them to grow up and fill in that blank with words like shame/embarrassed/weird/different/not good enough/etc

We have a few of those. This one was one of my son's favourite books for about 2 months he chose it every night: Harris, Robie. It’s So Amazing!: A Book about Eggs, Sperm, Birth, Babies, and Families

He now knows more about basic reproductive process than most 10 year olds and is fascinated by it all. It's actually super great, even includes things like how he was made (IVF) which he now knows about. And the kid asks deep ****ing questions, like he has lots of questions about death and he asked what happens if a baby dies while still in the mommy (the book doesn't talk about it) and we have a few people in our lives going through miscarriage's right now that maybe he picked up on some of our adult conversations about I'm not sure, but regardless we had a great 5 year old level conversation about that too.

Yeah, those definitely are two different kinds of pride, but as the same word is used for both, I'm afraid learning one could lead to another.

It would be nice if there were a good different word for the version you want your children to feel, but I can't think of one either.

Regarding that book about families, while I personally wouldn't find it objectionable and find it silly that others do, I do see what it is that they find objectionable. Was wondering about what books they want to ban that really have nothing like that at all.

OK, I can show you the info you asked for, but I can’t read it at you.

It doesn’t much matter, because we both know you’ll end up siding with the conservstives.

Does this book include any mention of sexuality or gender identity? Or just straight biology taught at a level that children can understand?

Kinda curious about the Mass books. Not a children’s lit reader, but they seem like the kinds of books I would have been into.

Let me give one more anecdote to perhaps illustrate how I might use the word "proud". Firstly, I don't use that word all that often, I just am talking about those other feelings and was summarizing them here to you under the banner "proud". But anyways, my son has a lot of clinical anxiety about entering new spaces, and we've worked with a number of programs to help support him. So after a really challenging time where he faced his fears and worked through them and we got him to, say, pee at a new place he hasn't peed before, I might say I'm really proud of him for fighting back the worries together with me and being able to go into that new washroom. This isn't some big accomplishment for anyone else - no other kindergarten kid in his class has these struggles. But it was big for him. And I want him to feel that sense of pride that he CAN overcome his anxieties and it's ok that he is different in this way we are going to work together.

I just don't believe that this is part of a trajectory to feeling like he is better than anyone else. I actually think you have to be quite a bad parent really misusing the notion of pride if there is a slippery slope form one to the other.






I mean, this seems sufficient to me in the sense that one one page all that existed was one family that happened to be same sex, among many other pages like a family where the grandparents lived with them or where one of them was in a wheelchair or where one of them had frizzy hair and green skin and the other had straight hair and purple skin. Totally innocuous things where the mere existence of a gay couple is enough for the outrage. Nevertheless, there are ALSO books that fit your category, I recall one from the library so missing the exact title that was about a little unicorn trying to make friends in a school where all the other animals were horses and they made fun of her for being different. Nothing explicitly LGBT at all about it, but there mere sort of allegorical connection was enough to get it banned.

No, nothing about gender or sexuality, it's just about where babies come from, anatomy of girls vs boys etc. I think the objection was just that this was too much sex for kids in that age group to know that the sperm from a penis swims up to the egg in fallopian tubes or whatever. There is a page iirc about adoption and many different types of families might want to adopt a kid and what that means and how the parent or parents still loved the kid etc.

Part of the reason "pride" is used is that in the past anyone that was different was subjected to being told they should feel shame. What's the opposite of shame? One word for that is pride. I don't think that works very well in these contexts. A better word might be "acceptance", both individually and by society. But then that seems limited.



uke - If showing two parents of the same sex isn't explicitly LGBT, what is?

He was talking about a different book there.

I see that now.

Also, the premise that it would be okay to ban books that depict LGBT people is bananas. Heather Has Two Mommies came out in the 80’s I think the kids in 2023 are gonna be fine hearing about this stuff.

I think that banning books is silly. (It's also silly to call what is going on a ban.) But someone has to choose what books to stock. And everyone has a boss that can overrule them.


I also think that the current trend of one person complains and a book gets removed is asinine. It was amusing when some guy in Utah got the Bible removed from some elementary school because it had inappropriate subject matter.

Yeah I think the term "ban" gets throw around super loosely in today's world and even when used appropriately whatever is getting banned applies to some small district. There are also wild exaggeration all the time in these convos like when people protested the "don't say gay" bill or when someone suggest there is some widespread ban of books that only mention LGBT people.

That seems great, but you're telling him you're proud, and that he should be proud of himself, because of something he did, not because of something he is.

I wouldn't tell him that he should be proud to be a boy, or proud to be white (or black), etc.

That might be true for this particular anecdote, but I have no problem instilling a sense of pride in something he is as well. For both my kids, far from feeling shame or embarrassment about the things that make them who they are, I hope they have a really positive sense of self and are able to love themselves, particularly - as in my son's case - for things that might set them apart as different from their peers. Again, I think it might just be linguistic disagreement as I don't really think you disagree, you just don't seem to want me to wrap that all up and call it "pride".

Sure. I think I'm using it in a way fairly synonymous with "opposite of shame". I don't want my kids to feel shame about themselves. But here's I guess a larger point: I think the only reason people are really objecting to "pride" being used in this context is because the LGBT community absorbed "pride" as part of their messaging of self-love and acceptance and it has somehow tainted the word "pride" for some people. Well, I reject that tainting of the word and so have no problem continuing to use it.



As trolly mentioned, it was a different book. But I think it's irrelevant. I think there is a distinction between a book that simply has a character somewhere that is LGBT (i.e. visibility) and something with an explicit pro-LGBT message, or something talking about sex in an age-inappropriate way, etc. The first book I talked about did the former but not the latter and was still banned.

I don't particularly like it with regard to the LGBT community either, but I do understand it, as in the past (and somewhat into the present), many of them have been told they should feel shame for who they are.

However, honestly where I live, some LGBT people are getting to the point where things they say make it seem like they think that makes them better than others.

But at least I'm still not worried about their becoming violent hate groups, like the "Proud Boys" are.

I've never met an LGBT person who comes off as if they are better than others. I know right wing social media likes to super amplify any example of an LGBT person who goes too far outside their imagined lines, and that person is held up for group vilification. Maybe that's what you are talking about. But 99% of LGBT are just normal folks living their lives.

I figured you would know by now that I follow any right wing media. Nearly all I know about it is from this forum.

No, I'm talking about at medium to large events, especially music shows, in Portland. Probably at other west coast cities as well, but I haven't been to enough of those to judge.

The majority of the shows I go to include at least some LGBT performers, and at some of them cishet people are a definite minority.
I have gotten funny looks as an older white guy of conservative appearance. Occasionally more than that.

I have been to quite a few shows where someone on stage asks people to cheer if they are (gay, trans, or whatever).

I've also been to some where they ask the 'non-male' people to come to the front and tell the straight men to stay in the back.

As someone who likes to get to shows early so I can be in the front, this definitely rubs me the wrong way.

Plus, some I just can tell they feel that they are better than others, or at least they come across that way.
The same way you would be able to tell a white guy in a mixed crowd who thinks he is better than the black people around him and it offends him somewhat to have brush shoulders with them.

I thought the cliche about gay males was that you could never be too skinny or too rich...I assume that comes at a cost.

LGBT wanted to cheer each other??!?! And you were not in the majority somewhere?!?!??! I'm clutching my pearls just thinking about it!