I am certainly not the first person to notice there is some tension between believing that princesses can build rockets AND if if princesses play with rockets they are actually princes who will kill themselves if they aren't encouraged into getting a sex change.

There's no tension there except in your own head and people who haven't thought about it at all.
That's essentially like saying i'm not the first to notice people say you can beat poker long term AND most gamblers lose more than they win at the casino.

No one gets diagnosed with gender dysphoria just because they played with the "wrong" toys as a kid. You're referring to two complimentary truths, not a contradiction.

There is a very real contradiction. Entire wings of the feminist movement are built on the foundation that gender is a distinction without a difference, and then you have the trans movement coming in and taking the opposite view but turning the zealotry up to 11.

Except that, we do:

And of course, still no source for "Do you realize most kids that identify as trans either grow out of it or end up gay or lesbian." Are we to assume you just made that up?

I do believe I heard it on a Piers Morgan debate. But I googled it and there have been studies.

Lets also remember for progressive countries in Europe have halted any treatment of children due to a lack of long term results and children regretting their transitions and sadly you cant glue the parts back on

https://gidreform.wordpress.com/2014...ence-research/

Also, who cares? I’m fine if there are kids who don’t have a settled gender identity or aren’t entirely sure who they are.

Oh. So this thing you stated as fact, is something you "do believe I heard it on a Piers Morgan debate". I see.

As for your links, the first is to some article about guns, and the second is to a study that says:

In other words, the opposite of your stated "fact", LOL.

But yes, there have been studies that claim a high rate of desistance. The methodology of said studies is very much in question, but there is another consideration - even if true, does it matter?

The clinical irrelevance of “desistance” research for transgender and gender creative youth.

And what do the numbers tell us?

Putting numbers on the rise in children seeking gender care

The study "draws on full or partial health insurance claims for about 330 million U.S. patients over the five years from 2017 to 2021, including patients covered by private health plans and public insurance like Medicaid."

88,389 youth diagnosed with gender dysphoria in the three years from 2019-2021.
10,430 initiated hormone therapy.
3,388 initiated puberty blocker treatment.
776 children 13-17 underwent masectomies.
56 children 13-17 underwent genital surgery.

So, even if we take some studies of 80% of kids "grow out of it or end up gay or lesbian", that leaves us with over 17,000 who do not. Given the numbers above, is it possible that doctors, psychologists, and parents are getting it right? Perhaps there is some rigour to ensure that more extreme measures like surgery are only being done in extreme cases where it's very clear that it would be beneficial to the child?

I think it's fair to question things like surgery on kids, and make sure we're doing the right thing. 832 kids undergoing surgery, even though it's less than 1% of kids with gender dysphoria, is still 832 kids whose lives we want to ensure we aren't making worse. But we also need to understand that there isn't some epidemic of kids being allowed to "castrate or mutilate themselves" on a whim, and maybe sweeping laws from legislators who have little understanding of the issue aren't always the best response.

Most of the whole "castration and mutilation of children" bits that lozen is lapping up these days is all red herings. The overwhelming majority of "gender affirming care" to people under 18 is.....drumroll.....therapy. Aka talking. Which is great. They should have that. There is also some hormone therapies, particularly in older teenagers. Numbers of top surgeries are incredibly rare in people under 18 (something like a couple hundred a year), and far rarer still in younger children and bottom surgeries it's a number maybe in the dozens, with little knowledge of the kinds of histories etc that lead to this. This fiction that the right wing is creating where 13 year old are waltzing in and having surgeries two weeks later is just fear mongering. My personal view is that these are decisions for the trans kids, their parents, and their doctors and absolutely can believe a scenario where someone with a well established pattern of gender dysphoria over multiple years makes an informed choice to remove their breasts at 17 and conservative politicians should stay the **** out of that decision making process.

It's all just political. In red state after redstate the bills and political noise is just there to suck in the oxygen in this new culture war. If someone wants to make 10 posts talking about ways to support trans youth in schools and then on the 11th post just has to really share their super special opinion about castrating children well have at it. But you can't just make that post 11 times in a row.

Will see if anyone tracts the 832 kids and if they later regret it. Chances are not and many will never come forward as they realize there is no turning back and the trans community will shout them down if they speak up which they have done already

https://www.foxnews.com/us/detransit...-out-organizer

There are cases of regrets https://nypost.com/2022/06/18/detran...nging-genders/

So of that 832 how many is an acceptable number for those that regret it?


Its a complex subject and involves children we should be following the European countries that have put a halt to it

Peer pressure to do outrageous things with poorly understood but lasting consequences? You don't say!

Hey Timmy, I dare you to eat that slug.

10 years later...

More or less. The feminists argued that gender is a social construction and now that argument is that people are born in the wrong bodies sometimes.

Many feminists are scared to speak up

I've posted several studies in former iterations of this thread that between them found roughly 80% of children with GD grow out of it.

Tavistock in the UK was closed down explicitly because there was insufficient rigor and doctors were getting it wrong to the extent they are facing legal action and up to 1000 claims of misdiagnosis.

Tavistock gender clinic facing legal action over ‘failure of care’ claims

Yes, I mentioned the 80% figure myself in one of the posts you're replying to. As I mentioned, there is a fair bit of thought that the methodology of many of those may not have been sound. But even if the figure is accurate, that doesn't exclude the possibility of gender-affirming care being an overall positive.

Which is why rigor is necessary. But what isn't necessary are laws that ban all types of gender-affirming care for all kids (and in some states, even for some adults). In the UK, I believe the government let the NHS determine what changes were needed in response to the issues you've mentioned. Letting the medical experts sort out medical issues, rather than legislators getting involved - what a concept!

It doesn't preclude the fact that gender-affirming care may be an overall positive, but it is nonetheless an experimental procedure and should be treated with the same care and caution as any experimental procedure.

This is fine, as long as the "experts" are not wearing ideologically tinted sunglasses, which often seems to be the case.

https://nypost.com/2023/06/02/brawls...l-pride-event/

Whatever side of the culture wars you are on, I hope we can agree that if you are part of a group traveling to a grade school to physically fight with parents of the elementary school children who attend that school, you have jumped the shark.

For sure. They definitely support equality and acceptance for all individuals, but it was super duper important that they put a stop to outrageous things like...

Can you imagine? Rainbow stickers! Rainbow stickers!! And other items!!1!!1!!! Definitely important to show up at the school with signs like “No pride in grooming” and "Pedophilia is the Real Pandemic", wearing "Leave Our Kids Alone" t-shirts.

Of course, "parents could request that their children not attend the program", but really, that's just not good enough. This scourge of rainbow stickers and Pride assemblies MUST BE STOPPED!!!

Oh, Kelhus at it again. As a society, we certainly should all stand up against the disgusting homophobic and transphobic protesters to keep clear that their hateful message is unacceptable. This isn't condoning fighting on either side of course.

But, dude...

No we should stand up against you radical trans religion folks.

In St Albert , Alberta they are offering an elective course on the LGQBT2SBG awareness . It is offered as an elective .
Start at the junior high level but let's leave the kindergarten and grade school folks to learn the basics and leave it to the parents

Kids are so far behind from the remote learning during the pandemic. I can’t believe a 3rd grader doesn’t know about the lgbtq. They need to start having optional classes on Saturday for things like math and science so during the week these kids can learn about the stuff they really need to know before entering 4th grade like gay and trans issues.

So now you guys don't want religion in school?

Personally no but Uke and others have made Trans a religion

The important thing is that this mean trans kids deserve the additional layer of protection and respect that you conservatives always award religious views.

As someone who has a kid in kindergarten, I know I'm not going to start protesting if a teacher reads a book that has a theme of treating people differently from us kindly, or has a protagonist that has two men as parents, or teaches us to feel proud about who we are.

One thing I've noticed having read (coincidentally) books on some of the various book-ban lists to my child, is that they are mostly just basic normal good life lessons you want to teach your kids about being kind and caring to everyone around themselves etc. Books on these themes usually aren't allegories for LGBT inclusion, it's just called being a good human. Somewhere in the politicization the lessons we all teach our kindergarteners get lost in the anti-LGBT hate machine.