This reminds me of some final exam sociology paper I was once supposed to write and never did: "Is there such a thing as community in America or is it a community of communities".

It was a ridiculous thing for me to try to unpack at that point in my life.

It always super annoys me when I am in a predominately Spanish speaking area (like El Paso or Santa Maria, CA) and some Spanish speaking clerk just assumes that I am a gringo and speaks to me in English even though my Spanish is rather good.

I think America or at least parts of will become more and more bilingual. That isn't a bad thing. The Sapir-whorf hypothesis is super interesting (and rather controversial) but there are also lots of interesting studies on bilingualism and the effect that it has on brains.

In large parts of the US you can get by without English. Anecdotal but I met a lady in Colombia and was shocked by how poor her English was despite the fact that she lived in NYC for 15 years. She said she never needed to speak English.

I also stayed in LA's Chinatown recently and thought it was funny that when the Chinese in the neighborhood passed us on the sidewalk they would speak to me and the Brazilians I was with in Spanish. "Hola. Buenos dias". The lady who lived at the house in front of my airbnb spoke zero English so I used Google translate to tell her I liked her plants and she loved that.

Xenophobia isn't something that is limited to Americans and I agree with Suzzer that it is more targeted at Hispanics in the US than with other immigrants (with the possible exception of Somalis). But it seems like you also come across Hispanics everywhere now including the deep south and so I think attitudes will change.

1. There is no American I know who wants to work in a field in the Central Valley picking strawberries for 12 hours in 100 degree heat. Or even wash dishes in a restaurant or work in a car wash all day. Do you really think immigrants are stealing these jobs from Americans?

2. This is flat out wrong. Why would we engrave it on the Statue of Liberty if it wasn't true? Do you think the Irish and Italians were coming over on luxury liners flush with capital? They were basically packed into ships in horrible conditions - they came here because they were absolutely destitute, even starving - and they were hated for it when they got here.

3. Sure - but again this is just first generation. I work with tons of second and third generation Latino immigrants in tech in LA. Give someone a good education and they contribute to the economy when they grow up.

4. Do you really think this is a problem beyond first generation immigrants? Have you ever tried to learn a foreign language an adult? It's hard as hell. I spent a year trying to learn Spanish for my trip and I can converse at about a 4-year-old's level. Personally I don't think people would be as bothered by this w/o right-wing media stirring their fears.

5. Yeah that's the whole point. Doesn't help when you have the president and a massive media machine deliberately playing on those fears for votes and eyeballs.


My great-great grandfather Clemente (my middle name) was a coral trader in Positano Italy - which was nothing but a dirt-poor fishing village at the time. When his first wife died he put his five kids on a boat for the US. Apparently that's just what you did if you had enough money back in Italy - you put your kids on a boat for America - since there was no opportunity for your kids there.

When they got to the US they got split up in homes of family and friends around Port Jefferson, Long Island. I'm sure they didn't arrive with much money in their pockets. They sure didn't come with advanced degrees.

Of course no one knew Positano was going to turn into a major tourist area until the British discovered it in WWII. Clemente re-marred an 18-year-old at age 71 and had 4 more kids. The descendants of those kids own the biggest hotel on the beach and a ton of stuff there. Crazy world.

My great-grandfather Benjamino came over at age 5. The only Italian traditions our family has is a couple of kids games and our name. When I showed them to the family in Positano, they said - oh yeah no one but old people knows those games anymore.

SOL engraving arguably is more of an aspiration than an accurate reflection of popular views in the U.S. about immigration, either now or in the past.

As you pointed out, Italians, Irish, Chinese, etc., were hated by lots of people for arriving on our shores destitute. And there were plenty of efforts to restrict immigration at different times in the 19th and 20th centuries.

I just got done with a 6 month road trip through Mexico and Central America. Those countries are wonderful to visit, have a ton of beautiful natural wonders, and people who are fiercely proud of their country. They aren't ****-holes by any stretch of the imagination.

I can't even think of one time someone was rude to me down there. Imagine the reverse - if one of them was traveling all over the US. In a lot of ways the culture down there is flat out better than whatever it is we call "culture" here. I mean that sincerely and it's why I plan to move down there for good as soon as I can. The people don't have a pot to piss in, but still they manage to be welcoming and warm and not live their lives in hatred and fear.

I have no doubt if people had even reasonable economic opportunity in Guatemala, El Salvador and Honduras - and didn't have to worry about gangs in the major cities - the migrant flow would slow to a trickle - like it is from Mexico, Costa Rica, Panama, Nicaragua. The latter is easily the poorest of all the Central American countries - but it doesn't have the crime problems of Guat/El S/Honduras. Also Nicaraguans seem to just go to Costa Rica instead.

Yep - and my whole point is we look back on those fears that the Italians, Irish and Chinese won't assimilate as kind of silly now.

But even as late as the 60s there was apparently still enough anti-Italian sentiment to deny my dad a job. "whiteness" seems to be a malleable thing.

Ultimately they are two completely different languages that share a common background and share a lot of lexical, phonetic, syntactic and other properties.

Spanish has a large influence from Arabic that Italian does not have and this is why you see words like Azul vs Blu.

Phonetically they are super similar and share a five vowel system that you don't find in French or Portuguese. There are some syntactic differences. I've always advised anyone wanting to learn a bunch of romance languages to start with Italian first as it will give you the easiest access to all other Romance languages including Romanian.

California and essentially every single city IN California

What virtue are we signaling again? Being a decent human? Heaven forbid, where are my pearls?

Yes - back in flip phone days, it was annoying trying to remember how to get to my friend's house in San Juan Capistrano. She'd say "Turn on del Avion, then del Obispo" and I'm like how am I going to remember those names? Speak ENGLISH MFER!

On a semi-related note I just watched Gran Torino - liked it a lot more than I thought I would. Good slice of life about the immigrant experience in America.

The first, easiest and best connection across cultures is always about the food. That's why shows like Bourdain's were about food but as a gateway to so much more.

I literally teared up when Clint defended the family next door (who he still hated at that point) and the next day all the Hmong families in the neighborhood brought him tons of food and gifts. I'm getting misty just typing this lol. People are good - they just need a chance.

Most of the posts I was referring to got deleted already and the mod asked in this thread to drop it, so we should probably respect his wishes.

Sorry but I have to strongly disagree with your premise that Spanish and Italian are "two completely different languages" .
Where did you come up with that?
Spanish and Italian, along with Portuguese,French and even Romanian are all descendant from Latin.
Any school kid should know that.

He used "romance" so I'm sure he knows that. He's just saying the Arab influence changes Spanish somewhat.

The funny thing about this, is if you took a Spaniard from Spain, put him next to a Mexican and asked a Trump supporter who should get to immigrate, they would choose the Spaniard even though they speak the same language. So the whole "language" derail is largely bull****.

Totally agree.

Maybe some people are grasping the last straw before sinking because they have nothing else to cling to?

Ok. I'm coming out of the closet and outing myself. No more pretence.
No more political correctness, I'm gonna tell it like it is baby.

I'm against immigrants. There.
I'm against all those immigrants that came from Austria, Sweden, Norway, and especially Germany.
Who came hear with their weird languages and old world hatred of Slavs, Jews, gypsies, and southern , in their eyes inferior, Euoropeans in general.
I hate the thought that these people came here and took advantage of all that America had to offer. Had all doors open to them because of their white skin. Doors that were and are still closed to African Americans, who have been here theoretically since the Virginia colony.
I'm sick that they and none of their descendants, after making millions off the backs of ordinary Americans, never even bothered to serve in the military. I'm sick of the fact that they married outside the country!
That their spouses don't even speak proper English!

Trump was right! As they so affectionately say in Trumps home country
Auslaender Raus!

That's because the Mexican guy would use "ustedes" whereas the Spanish guy would use "vosotros." Mexicans' failure to use the vosotros tense is what is incredibly destructive to American culture.

Well they aren't dialects of Latin. The degree of mutual intelligibility is small. This is what I mean. Yes they are completely two languages just like German and Dutch are two completely different but related languages.

1. I am assuming you mean "white Americans" dont want these jobs. I get your point, but yeah,i think poor uneducated Americans don't want competition from illegal immigrants for these jobs for fear of being replaced at any time, no ability to increase pay and cannot complain about working conditions. My days of landscaping or farming for minimum wage or lower are long over.

See Rococo post. But I dont know of anytime where we did not require a sponsor that could prove support for an immigrant coming here unless they were refugees.

Not sure how many people balance their concerns with first generation immigrants with the future benefits of second and third generations.

I agree with your fourth paragraph.

Also, on an non latino issue. Not my generations, but those Americans that fought wars against the Japanese, North Koreans, North Vietnamese, Chinese, German and Italians all have a reasonable basis to view immigration as a diminishment of American culture. This racial bias that are probably impossible to change.

I'm a little confused but then again I'm not a linguist.
A dialect is a form of a language peculiar to a certain geographical region.

Spanish and Italian are independent languages that trace their roots back to Latin. The use of the word dialect in reference to them is inaccurate.

I'm fluent in German. If I read Dutch, I can understand at least 50%
But if a Dutch person speaks, because of the pronunciation, I can understand maybe 5% The Netherlands themselves have multiple dialects within the tiny country.

Language starts to differentiate, at least in the past before the age of modern media, through repetition of different pronunciation of the same word.

In German, the word for love is Liebe(leebe)
in the almost extinct dialect of Cologne(Koelsh)
It's pronounced Leeve

We should open a separate thread for origins and evolution of languages.
Mods agree?

Appalachia, one can say, has a dialect but it's arguably still English with roots from England.

Are we speaking the same language?

Yeah whatever it is you're doing here probably belongs in a separate thread. Feel free to start one

I think luck was trying to somehow use language as a tool for his anti immigration stance.
If I'm wrong Luck, I apologize.

Yes, language evolution would make a fascinating subject.
But I'm afraid I may not have the full scope of academic competence needed to lead the discussion.
If anyone who may deem themselves more qualified would like to make the move?

Ok sir, I must let you go.

I won't derail the thread with linguistics talk anymore but I studied linguistics and am willing to derail any thread with language talk if allowed.

But no. I support immigration and like being in places that have diversity.

But I also support the right of nations to set their own immigration policy and I don't think open borders is a good idea but those are theoretical discussions also outside of the scope of this thread.

You studied linguistics? Ok I defer, even though I still don't like your categorization use.

The problem with politics our days is that there can only be two choices.
One is either for or against. The middle ground has been obliterated.
By both sides. One extreme or the other. I think this is true for many parts of the world, not just the U.S.

I agree with you on immigration. I would Venture to say that most liberals share a similar sentiment.
I agree that we both seem to think that immigration is ok.
I agree that we both seem to agree that immigration should be regulated.
I'll even go further and say that I believe that there has to be a concerted effort made to assimilate the immigrants coming to this country .

Where I think we differ is that I don't think that the majority of the right agrees with our sentiments. They have made it perfectly clear that they do not want any immigration at all.
They have made it perfectly clear that they will only tolerate immigration from white, European countries.
They have made it perfectly clear that they view South Americans and other none white groups that want to immigrate to this country with hostility.
They have clearly shown a hostile and violent treatment of none whites attempting to immigrate to this country.
They have repeatedly shown disregard for human rights and a disregard lawfully due process.

It's obvious to any dimwit that the right in this country is using fear mongering propaganda to achieve their goals.

There was room for some nuance. Yes different languages but "completely different" I might have gone too far. They definitely get a lot more different.
I don't see Latin America culture as being sufficiently different from US American culture as to require that. I'm barely sure it is required for Somalis or anybody else from more exotic places honestly. I agree with what has been put forth in this thread by others that people will assimilate themselves if and when they want to and for those who don't it is because it isn't needed for them. The Chinese lady in LA that I spoke of seemed like she had probably been there for a long time but English isn't needed for her.
I bet if you told them there are some Venezuelans who hate socialism and would love to move to Florida and other swing states, you'd have people sponsoring them.
Both sides.