This is true of the GOP as well. Neither party is as coordinated as people who post on politics forums would like to believe.

Joe Manchin wants to win elections you say?

If only there was a way for the Dems party, who is currently in charge of the Justice Dept, the White House, and has vast media influence, could somehow persuade him to vote a certain way.

ofc federal legislation was achievable. Obama even said he would do it. he was lying ofc.

your assertion about stamping feet and insisting is ofc a typical liberal lie. I put forth multiple realistic avenues for the Dems to enshrine abortion.

My original comments were only about expanding the Court. I agree that federal abortion legislation might have been achievable. It would have required eliminating the filibuster, and it obviously wouldn't have been a permanent solution, but it might have been possible. I suspect that there were other considerations besides the filibuster. Conservatives on the Court have always said abortion rights should be a legislative issue. If a challenge to Roe had come before the Court while federal legislation protecting the right to abortion had been on the books, I think it would have increased the chances that Roe would be overturned. That's what happened anyway, but it wasn't a sure thing. A lot of people, including me, thought there was a decent chance that Roberts would peel off someone like Kavanaugh. (I'm not pointing at Roberts as some sort of protector of abortion rights. He didn't want to overrule Roe, mainly because he thought it would harm the reputation of the Court, but he has been more than willing to whittle away at abortion rights.)

I don't see how my statement that stamping your foot and insisting is not effective leadership could be a "lie." It's pretty clearly an opinion, not a statement of fact.

well I never said to stamp your feet and yell and beg Manchin. I said use the levers of power to compel him and other recalcitrant party members to follow the party line. the Dems do that for other things ofc. we have seen how they make people like AOC and Ilhan fall in line. they dont do it for abortion bc they dont care.

I guess my problem is that I have no idea what this means in practice if the issue in question is expanding the Court. Manchin and Sinema concluded long ago that they don't need the support of the Democratic party. That's why Sinema is nominally an Independent now. That's why Manchin delights in giving his own party the finger at every turn. He believes that infuriating members of his own party is good for his personal political brand in WV.

I guess that some people might believe that Manchin and Sinema are sin eaters for the Democratic party--that Democratic administrations encourage them to thwart initiatives that the administration never wanted to do in the first place--but that seems very far fetched to me.

Manchin and his daughter in particular are corrupt as hell. Put the Justice Dept and SEC on their asses for the oil corruption and Epipen gouging.

threaten to plaster their names all over the media for keeping abortion illegal and then start to leak such stories from friendly Wapo opinion writers.

Im not a political operative. I dont know all the trickso f the trade. and Im not privy to all the dirt these people do. but if you cant get dirt to influence some of the most craven and corrupt people in the country then its laughable incompetence considering that influence is the primary purpose of the party. they just dont want to do that bc they dont care enough.

Shitty little one-liner that doesn't address any point. You're killing it.

So, how am I supposed to "actually deal with what's happening"? I'm just a random citizen with no power. Do you share the Republican idea of "oh, all you randos should just STOP PAYING ATTENTION to politics and focus on yourself and your family. You'll be happier not checking the news every day!"

What tribe am I in? I'm not a Democrat, or a Republican. I'm not a member of any political party. I'm kind of a Marxist; I admit I identified myself as such, but I don't interact with Marxists much at all, it's just the ideology that is closest to mine. The person ITT with the closest ideology to mine is Victor, and I disagree with him plenty, including some of the stuff he's saying here.

All the people who vote straight line ticket for decades on end, they're not tribal, no way, I'm sure we can agree on that. I'm much more tribal than them. Nevermind that I have no tribe to begin with.

Don't feel the need to address any of these points which refute your dumb little Bill Maher-style quip. I get that substantive discussion isn't your bag.

Now that’s just mean.

Right-wing Democrats like Trolly looooooove talking about "tribalism". I think they got it from their guy Obama; he was always on about tribalism. At least when he wasn't busy massively expanding the powers of the NSA and drone striking everybody.

These tribes are always based on politics, religion, etc. etc., and they exist to a degree, but they serve to distract people from focusing on the thing within politics that moves people most of all. MONEY. Politics is mostly about people and groups of competing economic interests.

"Hi, I'm a large company. I would like to save money by dumping our pollutants/waste into this lake in a poor area."
"Hey, I live in the poor area, we'll get sick if you dump your waste in our lake, let's do what we can to stop the company from doing that."

You've posted in these places for many, many years. I wonder if you've ever, EVER convinced anybody of anything. I wonder if you've even really tried.

You're a slightly less right-wing version of that Ins0 guy. Can't make salient points about anything, so just snark away for decades on end. Actually, I take that back, Ins0 will occasionally, at least, engage in good faith.

Anyway, STFU and let less bitchified members of your tribe give it a shot.

Exactly. MAGA republicans who support impeachment cannot get enough votes for their impeachment. Some republicans don't want to do it. There are many reasons for this. It's actually quite hard getting a couple hundred people on the same page.

So you want the democrats to break the law to force senators into voting specific ways? I just want to be completely clear on what you're thinking here.

I can't believe Manchin would spit in the face of his tribe! It's almost like the industries that pay him, the pharmaceutical industry in particular (in which his daughter is a prominent member, although Joe himself is not, I guess it's a sub-tribe?), and the millions spent on lobbying are a massively more compelling force with regards to Joe Manchin's actions as a Senator than anything to do with "tribalism".

Which issues would you say Ins0 and I agree on?

nothing illegal there. and regardless, they currently make the law.

He's a conservative democrat, for the most part. His state went for trump by like 20 points.

He was essential to passing bi-partisan legislation and then passing massive climate change legislation. So I cannot hate on him too much. He played his part and has voted for pretty much every judge and appointee for the admin.

I am more upset with the senate candidates that lost than I am about Manchin.

No, they don't make the law.

Do you want Joe Biden to force the justice department to investigate people who won't comply with his voting requests in congress?

- capitalism
- broader aims of US foreign policy

Two big ones. There are more, but why don't you address any of the million things I've told you first? For instance, what tribe am I in?

Ins0 is a NeverTrump center-right guy and you're a right-wing Democrat. You types have teamed up numerous times before. Y'all did a great job starting the Iraq War(s).

Can you be a bit more specific? What aspects of “capitalism” do we agree on? What “broad foreign policy goals” do we share?

The truth about Joe Manchin is pretty simple. He is a moderate west virginia democrat and always has been. As the views of the party and most of its members changed over time( not just a shift to the left, but younger generations with different problems) his has been largely consistent. And now there is a striking contrast between his views and rhetoric compared to most others in the party.
He's in the tradition of ben nelson now. He's 76 and just from a different time. I would mostly just say he hasn't done anything wrong, he's just a 76 year old guy from west virginia.

After Ben Nelson left the senate in 2013 there hasn't been a democrat senator from nebraska. I suspect after 2025 there won't be another democratic senator from west virginia for a long time.

legislative branch makes the laws.

and yes ofc I want Joe Biden and the Dems to do something that already happens.

The republicans control congress.

Even if they had full control they cannot outlaw something after it happens.

It's hilarious that you don't care at all about the rule of law. But you care enough to not put it in your own words.


Regardless, Biden should absolutely not do that. Manchin would simply change parties. Sinema would probably caucus with republicans. Then the majority is gone. It's just not smart or legal.

I'll be happy to discuss this further once you do the basic kindness of engaging in good faith to the numerous responses you've received that have heretofore remained unaddressed.

Again, I know that's not really your bag. I get that's it's more fun for you to launder your self-hatred and intellectual insecurity in these forums through your constant snarky little content-less quips (I'm no psychologist, but it's the only way I can explain your baffling, cowardly, and pathetic decades-long behavor in these forums), so I won't be holding my breath over here.

The most basic economic law is how supply and demand work together. Suggesting that the laws of supply and demand don't apply to labor is beyond silly.

No, we don't.

Increases in productivity tends to come from ambitious people who tend to work a little harder than your average person or someone who has a bright idea that will help the people around him/her. Those people tend to be rewarded thus making them wealthy.

I know dems have tried teaching us all that rich people are evil and don't do anything, but for the most part rich people are like anyone else except that are able to help more people than the rest of us.