except when you accept their T&C you accepting the policy on cash games disconnections... so it will be the same if the casino room have a policy on only paying living costumers..

Is there not a way we can get 2+2 mods to step in and delete this forum and ban this corrupt room from advertising, and get rid of this deplorable idiot Betonline Mike?

I think it's saying it's a little bit higher is a big under statement.

On old school Pokerstars after rakeback, I paid $6000 dollars per 100K hands to play 2/5.

On Ignition, I pay $25,000 per 100K hands to play 2/5.

On BetOnline, I pay $37,000 per 100K hands to play 2/5.

Here's what a 10bb/100 pre-rake winrate would net on each site:

Old PS: 8.5 bb/100
Ignition: 5 bb/100
BetOnline: 2.5 bb/100


After 500K hands:

Old PS: $210,000

Ignition: $125,000

BetOnline: $62,500



It's pretty clear that BetOnline rake structure is going to force every pro except the very top-tier negative. And that top-tier player is going to have some nasty swings because a 2.5bb/100 winrate spends lots of 100K hand stretches in -EV territory.


If you combine the rake structure, the $3K withdrawal cap, the removal of 10/20NL, and the banning of winning pros for having PIO installed (basically mandatory software for a professional poker player), I'd say you aren't meant to win.


P.S.

Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if the low-stakes accounts that people are accusing of being bots aren't house bots, because it's very very difficult to overcome the rake here.

Sorry for spamming here, but a small update on my end. IMO not really small update but I ran my own connection test tonight mid hand on the software and just watch this video and compare it to yesterdays video..

https://youtu.be/eyMiD5jQNZE

Careful my friend, I literally just got a pm from Mike that threatened to ban me from the forum if I continue accusing him of things without proof.

He doesn't have enough street cred to just quote me and respond and shame me publicly so he sends pm's in the dark.

I'd quote the pm but he'd probably ban me for that.

Since he said I can't make personal attacks anymore, I assume attacking his organization is still fair game.

fyi he also said I'm amusing. That part is probably true.

BTW I think he's technically a moderator of this specific forum. And since I'm pretty sure Chico is paying 2+2 to host here, it's unlikely the head moderators do anything. I do think this forum is beneficial though. Nobody reading it will deposit money if they are clear of mind. Well, in the US market probably they will out of desperation. Gas station in the middle of bum**** Iowa charging 4x the rate sort of thing...

I've been saying this for over a year now. It's literally the only thing that makes sense at this point. If it quacks like a duck and shits like a duck sort of thing...

I just meant the rake percentage was a bit higher, since we're dealing with single digit differences, but your point is well taken since that is a bit misleading. The $ cap per pot is also higher at Chico in most cases. Them being only single digit rake percentage differences is obviously not as important when even a bit higher of a percentage and higher cap increases the amount of rake paid over time exponentially and significantly decreases earning potential. I appreciate you showing the maths to illustrate that point!

I haven't heard of anybody being banned for having Pio installed. I have heard players say that they've been asked to remove it if they wish to continue playing here. I've also heard players say that they've never gotten a warning to remove it by making sure none of the Pio processes are running on their computer while the client is open.

The inconsistency of the removal of these fairly obvious cash game bots has always left me with reason to consider the potential for them to have a relationship with someone working from within the network. I can't prove that it's not just negligence though. Whatever the reason is, they're there, have been for years and in totality they've stolen lots of money from the players on the network over the years. If it's not outright thievery by someone working from within the network allowing them then it's still simply unacceptable for them not to have better methods in place for detection, prevention and removal of these bots by now.

I don't blame anybody for choosing not to play here. I don't play here because it's great. The main reason I play here more than elsewhere is because the other online options for a US based player aren't significantly better options, if at all, and aren't better for someone who considers consistently stable software to be a high priority. If you're a high stakes professional poker player it certainly makes sense to put in volume elsewhere.

He PM'ed me too and I told him to shove it.

I'm pretty sure other shitty poker rooms have been banned from here after having had a forum on the site.

This is where you're wrong. For the same reason people share articles on facebook without reading the headline, people will see "betonline 2+2 forum" and not read it, and simply assume "oh well 2+2 takes their advertising dollars they must be legit."

IMO we should obviously keep criticizing them until either A) they actually fix the **** wrong (LOL) or B) the head mods here finally ban this forum and send these crooked idiots packing.

Just gonna repost this so any new comers reading the thread can see Chico has no intention of using your stats or info to assist in banning bots.

I took 40 common stats in a large HUD and referenced the known bots to the parent bot, d00ble. There you see the statistical difference of all numbers added up is less than 100.

All I did was add up the stat number totals and subtract them from each other to get the difference - showing how much each account differs from the other.

The 330-380+ numbers are between bots and humans

The 230-270 numbers are between human to human

What this proves is
1.) it's pretty ****ing easy to figure out many of the bots using this method
2.) Bot to bot accounts play impossibly similar to each other
3.) Human psychology suggests poker regs stay within reasonable boundaries of strategy similarities but nowhere close to the tight impossible sub 100 #'s you see among the bots
4.) The 300 #'s prove that bots don't follow human psychology in any way and diverge dramatically from the human reg populations.
5.) It is almost an impossibility to have a human reg match anywhere close to the bot numbers as this category "bot to human" diverges the most dramatic. Obviously if there is the anomaly of any reg unfortunate enough to be considered a bot, there are a dozen other not so reliable methods to consider so they do not accidentally get banned. But if that anomaly reg doesn't match 10 out of the 12 other methods that it should be determined they are not a bot.

I then provided 5 or 6 other known bots with the HUD stats as well if anyone wants to add up the numbers and compare them with the other bots.

HINT. You're always gonna get an extremely close number around 80 to 100. That's because they are the same bot strains.

Pretty much all of the bots listed were never banned and can still be found on statname.

Some of them are suspected house bots - they've been around for years, the entire player pool knows they are bots and yet Chico keeps them around even after posting a mountain of evidence that no person can deny.

Not only have I reposted this undeniable proof multiple times throughout the last 12 months, I personally pm'ed Mike not only this but a 30 minute video and a dozen other pictures that show wayyyyyyyyyy more proof than this that go into bet sizings pre and post flop (flop, turn and riv), and other methods of bot detection.

What Chico is doing, obvious for anyone to see, is making their risk to reward calculation and banning just enough bots to attempt to appease the masses and yet keeping very specific bot accounts. This fact is also undeniable after many years of watching this unfold.

Chico management has allowed bots to steal hundreds of thousands of dollars from all limits and game types - over many many years - maybe even millions - this is absolutely an illegal enterprise that has proven time and time again they do not possess moral clarity of any kind and do not respect fair games or their clients hard earned money.

p0ker_n00b,

Interesting, could you please post some evidence? I'll get it right to my security team!

-Betonline Mike, probably

p0ker_n00b - It still cracks me up that you almost got your roll stolen/confiscated by BOL. You know BOL is super shady, but yet you continued to trash them relentlessly while still holding your roll on site - and then to top it off you went ahead and gave Mike your BOL account information mid trashing - You just can't help yourself haha. Are you still berating players at the tables?

p0ker_n00b,

Hi, can u write here or pm me, what is that algorithm u used, with those result details, so i might work on my db as well, i have pretty much of data.

Thx.

The combination of the bot and the rake convo itt has definitely killed my motivation to play. Similar to MAC, as a US PLO cash game player, I don't think there are many other options.

At the stakes I play right now, PLO10 and PLO25, there is almost NEVER a game running without at least one known, reported bot. I"ve heard some of the NLHE players say some bots weren't that tough In PLO, at least for small stakes, these bots were designed v well(, theyre no doubt the toughest regs in the game. They all have 16+bb/100 winrate.

I've posted the names and stats of every small stakes cash game PLO player I know to be a bot. Probably the easiest single stat in identifying these bots, is aggression frequency.

Reported bots and their flop Aggression Frequency:

Salat- 48
sledak- 45
shipa - 45
pyropyro- 45
feo_fan - 45
soapOpera- 45
PARpero-45

Remember, these are BY FAR the biggest winners all time in PLO 10 and PLO 25 respectively on Chico network.

Now for comparison, let's go look at the 20 biggest winners on stars all time at PLO25 and their aggression frequency(in order from #1 to #20 all sample sizes over 200k hands hands):

33
24
41
23
42
33
26
32
36
33
30
29
28
36
33
30
30
32
34
36

Average of 31 which is about what I see for most aggressive regs at these stakes. But ALL of the chico bots share a 45 flop aggression factor.

At the 50-200nl full ring games, I had thousands to many thousands of hands on a lot of regulars and almost none of them had a positive winrate of any significance. Everyone was a loser to 1 bb/100. I started wondering who actually wins in these games? Small sample sizes but you'd think at least a decent ratio would still be showing as winners instead of <5%. I dunno if there are house bots, people have rakeback, or are simply playing to hit the BBJ.

There's a lot of bots that have been playing boost lately. It's easy to figure them out too. If they bet 1/3 of the pot reraise them and they fold 100% of the time. If they bet 2/3 or higher they have at least top pair. If they do raise 2/3 or higher on the flop there will always be a continuation bet. If anyone is curious to watch specific players for this PM me and I'll give you a couple of names.

There is no doubt in my mind these are bots. I play on the site few hr/week and these are always up and have largest stocks ta tables. Its a shame but hopefully US will legalize online poker and we dont have to play on these sites that ignore players complains.

Fun, Fun

Btw anyone pm'ing requesting info about bots etc

I don't have bankroll on Chico anymore and I just pop into this thread every 2 or 3 weeks to repost stuff about bots. It's usually when I am bored and just happened to remember. Because if I don't do this then new thread readers will skim through the last 5 pages and see some of Mikes grandma-level-sweet apologetics with quotes from concerned players.

So I'm not interested in fighting anything. I already went on a crusade about 25 pages back. I was told "things were taken care of" LOL - only to find not 1 of the 6 bots I sent mountains of evidence on were banned - So I'm just here to inform new readers, that's all. I was going to compile evidence on dozens but I sent the 6 easiest as a 1st test. The test scores came back worse than an F- bc an F- suggests maybe it could have been 43% maybe and not a big fat ZERO.

also lol johnny - I wonder how many here were around to read my timeline I posted a couple dozen pages back - 3 years of cashouts, no problems - no questions, no verifications needed - living in Thailand I already cashed out half my bankroll - a week later I received a pm from Mike asking for my email and account number - literally 24 hours later my last withdrawal request had a flag on it and I had to go through a lot of verification to get that money. Not accusing anyone of anything - but the time line sure is funny LOL

I haven't played PLO 25/50 for awhile, but know Salat is 1000% a bot. Sledak rings a bell too, but can't say with certainty. If the other guys have similar stats to Salat, then they're likely bots b/c almost noone at small stakes PLO is able to maintain that playing style.

Back when I dabbled in PLO 50, it was brutal in terms of bots and PLO 25 looked to be the same. Can't say with any certainty below that, but between the # of bots and the ridiculous rake it's extremely, extremely tough for even the best players to win much on a consistent basis. Slightly fewer bots at PLO 100 and even fewer at PLO 200 so you almost have to just save up a bankroll somehow and just jump straight to those levels. I don't envy anyone trying to grind their way up from PLO 25/50 purgatory.

I went thru a similar thing. Verified my account like 5-6 years ago and had dozens of cashouts. Last year I got into sports betting and had a big hit one evening, so asked for a big cashout. They gave me the run around and asked me to verify again, took like a week. Fast forward 6 months later and several no nonsense cashouts in between and have another decent sportsbook hit. Once again I go to cashout and am stalled. It was obvious as fk that they were just messing with me hoping I'd keep gambling that sportsbook money before taking it off site. Pretty predatory if you ask me.

Like you, I'm taking my roll off and May will be my first month in years without a hand played here. Just gonna pop in every now and then to see if anything ever changes.

I'm sure the head honchos are patting themselves on the back with the growth over the past few months that is entirely due to the quarantine, but I'd be surprised if BOL's growth is above average during that period. They are probably screwed once things start to return to normalcy b/c from the tone of this thread, a lot of people are fed up and done with the site, and with very little rewards offered to the players, there are several way better options out there even for USA-based players.

Oh, and by the way, I finished 2nd in a cash rake race a month ago and never even received the $109 MTT ticket included in the prize. Brought it up with livechat and they told me it'd be taken care of. Of course it wasn't. I don't really care about it any more and it pales in comparison anyway to the ~$3500 in VIP point equity stolen from me. But just another warning to new players to be careful with the site. I will say their cashouts are top notch though (unless it comes following a sportsbook win).

Pretty much sums up my thoughts perfectly.

I grinded the micro PLO on BOL all year, and it was brutal. I was a PLO cash game grinder pre- black Friday and this is one of my first shots at online poker in years. Played ~100k hands, and was actually able to make some money, but it was BRUTAL. Won at 2bb/100.

On the bright side, the bot infested games and big rake did prompt me to plug some leaks.

Anyway, cashed out my roll today. Giving another site a try. Not saying this to slander the site, but I genuinely fell bad for all the players in the games in the SSPLO at BOL (don't know anything about NLHE).

I've been mainly grinding 50NL and 100NL in Thailand the last year

My last hand on Bet Online was dated 5.19.2019 so 1 year ago.

During a 180k hand sample I was playing at least 3 bots per table, usually 1 or 2 regs and 1 rec

During that 180k sample were hands that were certainly questionable, I'm a much better player now

100k sample on another softer site at 100NL I had 6bb

250k sample 4 tabling PS 25 zoom I had 2bb and I was under extreme emotional stress during that period so if I was 2 tabling zoom under normal stress levels my winrate would certainly be closer to 4bb

My winrate on Betonline with very active table selection, 6 tabling was
only 1bb

The rake over 80k hands at 25NL was $1,800 which is 11bb
The rake over 90k hands at 50NL was $4,400 which is 10bb

So that's avg 10.5bb/100 rake for 24/20 stats over a decent sample

my PS rake over 105k hands at 25NL was $1,600 which is 6.5 to 7bb/100

this means if my numbers are correct my winrate on betonline should be around 4.5bb/100 if the rake was at normal level

fwiw everyone says pokerstars zoom are the toughest pools per limit in the world

Betonline 6 tabling normal speed bot infested games were imo objectively harder than 4 tabling PS zoom

4 bots at one table basically means a 60%+ chance you get squeezed and aggression that no player below 100NL can deal with without massive bot research

And the level of aggression those bots show make it impossible for normal players to have any chance at winning

The most aggressive regs even at 100NL are NOTHING compared to the aggression EVERY bot on Bet Online 25NL shows

and I spent around 100 hours datamining those bots to find any exploits I could over a 3 year period

So that's 1bb at 25NL/50NL after massive bot research and being
a solid player

ChiTown said the games are better in terms of bots last time we chatted but going from minimum 3 per table many times 4 or 5 per table to "better"

I'd say the toughest limits on BetOnline are 25 and 50NL, the 100NL games significantly easier - I'd bet my bankroll any player could achieve a higher winrate at 100NL on chico than 25NL. The reason for this is exclusively bc of the bots and the rake.

Ya, same thing for the SSPLO bots. The aggression is off the charts. The average player at those stakes don't have a chance.

I'm not sure how NLHE plays compared to PLO, but in PLO I'd say put in the work and study the bots hard and you can easily use their aggression against them and do quite well. I actually was sitting to the direct right of bots whenever I could b/c I knew exactly how they'd play and how to counter them.

Agreed though that the vast majority of players at these stakes just don't have a chance and will feel run over. The bots are designed to suck every penny out of casual players and they do it quickly and efficiently, not to mention optimal play day in and day out for 10 hours a day. Absolutely awful for the ecosystem.

I'd say this is 99% at the case in PLO. At least PLO 50 is definitely harder to win than at PLO 100 and probably PLO 25 although I didn't have much playtime there. I remember at one point I wanted to do a mini bankroll challenge at PLO 25 and play 50 hours at each successive stake until I got to PLO 500, but after 30 hours I was like, this is pointless, I'm the best player here but my winrate is gonna be miniscule. So I just went back to my normal PLO 100/200 grinding.

Hi Poker n00b,

Thank you for your query received.

Regards to your query we do need the hand number you were referring to in order to investigate these players.

Keep safe

Betonline Mike.

The company you work for stealing millions from the player base for years - totally fine
Being uncivil after having money stolen from you due to enabled illegal activities - How dare you my good sir ... !

Yet you can't list even one lol

If I was the owner of a restaurant and sent a well cooked ribeye to a VIP dropping $10,000 on a celebratory dinner 3 times in a row who requested it rare I would have a difficult time speaking as to what just happened as well. To be quite honest, in that situation, the owner of the restaurant may very well just bite the bullet and comp the entire dinner to $0. And if they did this, they should still expect this VIP to never come back. But the civility ... ! Oh the civility ... !

VIP to the Owner: Forgive me friend, but how hard is it to cook a ****ing steak?
Owner: How dare you speak to me like that ... ! I cannot provide a satisfactory explanation as it's a touchy and difficult subject matter.

Hi Mike, I would like to let you know grinding in Thailand has been bot free on 6 different sites now. Funny it's the only 6 other sites I have grinded on outside of Chico. Funny how that is...I haven't ran into even ONE bot in over a year across 6 different sites...but keep sticking to the software/technology talking point. It actually would be brilliant if there weren't people like me outside of the US that has had experiences on the world market.

Yes, privately. Please make it private everyone. Can't be having the entire forum backing up anyone's evidence or +1'ing outed bots.