Is it against T&C to offer my own hands history to other players to consider if it's worth buying?

If so why?

why am I able to sell coaching or videos but I am not allowed to sell my own hand history?

I should probably clarify my previous reply, as it may not have been entirely correct. I'm not sure if the selling of your hand histories is against site T&C's, although there may be some copyright issues. What is against the site T&C's is the use of hand histories that are not your own while you are playing, which is what the vast majority of people looking to buy hand histories want them for, and that's why we don't allow threads about the topic on 2+2.

You mean something like datamining right?

I don't think that my few thousand games database would help such people who datamine.

But for sure would help people who are struggling at poker. It is the same principle as coaching but I believe this is far more effective, if not the most effective way to learn to play well.

I am bit of confused why this kind of learning poker method is tabu at poker forums.

My HH is not supposed to be used in game play, but in hand replayer. I think people shoud not put those two things in the same category, because datamining is form of cheating while seeing hand by hand with hero's revealed cards in a replayer is the holy grail of learning poker.

To make this more clear for others, this is from OP's previous thread, since deleted:

I'm not sure why an uncommentated, unannotated set of your hand histories would be the most effective way to learn to play well. I can't see people wanting to spend any significant amount of money on such a thing, but I guess you could either check with training sites to see if there's interest, create your own site, or pay to advertise on a poker site or forum.

Sounds like a coaching/training video, but without the commentary (IE coaching). That's the "holy grail of learning poker"?

I believe the time spent on reviewing hand history of ANY good player is much more beneficial in comparision with the same amount of time spent at training lessons.

I am not talking about spending few ours watching training videos without comentary.

I am talking about thousands of games of one single player and his strategy. no hand missed, no internet needed, game after game at your own pace.
Especially for players playing fifty50s at low stakes.

This is more convenient and effective way than watching videos. I wouldn't even compare those two things. But this is just my own opinion based on my own experience..

I am not sure if I am allowed to put some details like screenshots of how I'm doing or something in this thread.

I would really like other people to involve in this conversation.

From your thousands of HHS, people could easily build stats on your villains without having played them. This is not as easy from the more standard pedagogical methods.

I'm guessing there would not be much issue if you scrubbed the villain names (and maybe tournament IDs).

ok heres the thing I am not interested in fiftys. I have decided to focus my efforts elsewhere I bought BenardC heads up hyper videos they paid for themselves already and it upped my game. weather legal or not suppose benardC sold his hand history thats a lot of effort to go through looking through all those hands.

further i may not get why he did certain things or etc however crisp clear videos allow me to learn and progress properly.

if you have a decent record people will gladly pay you for coaching or for videos you could make.

I understand wanting the money without the having to spend the time training great make about 10 hours of videos explaining your expertise charge like $40 a hit or something sell 50-100 and its all good.

posting in the way you have screams con all over it.

not saying that you are trying a con or not but its normally what a con looks like. your taking a potential effective product that could sell and making it really dodgy.

not sure if selling hand histories is against site terms and conditions but it is a gray area there were maybe still are i dont know sites that sold a million hands on pros etc that was illegal and still is. your not just selling your hand history your selling the hand histories of everyone you played against.

if its not against the rules it should be, this now means if i buy your product I know that play X always bets turn if checked to etc, i can adapt to player X and use it against them without them even knowing or been able to pick up on game flow. now if players can do this to me it means every time i sit down people know how to play against me and i don't know it this is why data mining and etc is prohibited.

if stars didnt have a problem with you doing this I would question my continuing on stars. and I think many others would to.

Good point!

I know it might sound dodgy, because which winning player would like his HH to be shared?
Am I doing this from a good heart? No.
I am doing this for money and money only, because life forced me to do it.

People,
I will erase villain names and tournaments ID's from all tournaments I will offer.

You can check me on the internet, PM me to get my screen name.

Here is a month of grinding example of my play. I can give you as many examples as you want. I play mostly fifty50's turbo at low stakes on Stars.


OK I am new here and I can't attach an image here. system makes stars at the url.

any help?

Google helped.

[IMG][/IMG]

Another potential issue might be verifying they are your HHs.

By the way, I don't speak for 2+2 or any poker site. Just saw this and posted without giving a lot of thought to it.

I have no problem with verification, but If I made a video for example, how could it be verified if it really is my game recorded on it?

Allowing any handhistories at all, even if it is strictly for educational purposes, would make it really hard to draw the line as to what constitutes datamining.

Erased villain's names would solve the issue right?

if your desperate there are people who can stake you and if you can verify winning record to them they will make you an offer. you could then make profit from the staked money.

Thanks for advice, but staking requires time, which I don't have now and that's the main reason I created this thread.

How about borrowing some money, which swaps some money in the future for time?

There aren't many methods which are 'THIS IS FREE MONEY NOW', and I doubt people would pay much money for edited HHs.

They are not yours to sell, you do not own the copyright and you have no right to reveal information on other players. You and only you are licenced to use "your" hand histories.

PokerStars defines an "Unfair Advantage" as any instance in which a User accesses or compiles information on other players beyond that which the User has personally observed through the User's own game play.

http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/tos/

And here is a thread where an account was temporarily frozen for buying HH.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/32...ories-1274005/

Some converter would change the form of the hhs, then it is up to player names.

I'm not at all sure that copyright subsists in hand histories.

But the broader point applies - OP, you are not entitled to sell them.

I actually emailed stars something like this several years ago and they said it was cool as long as I anonymize the hand histories. Something like each player gets a new screen name but it stays consistent across hands so player:

SretiCentV

becomes StudMan69 in all hands. They said it was fine. I wasn't going to sell my own hand histories but repackage data mined hands for an app I was making.

It's what they used against data miners to force an opt in scheme...so yeah, Stars owns the copyright not you.

I'm pretty confident his point will be that hand histories don't exhibit the originality necessary for copyright to subsist in them, not that the player owns said copyright. Would be interesting if it was ever litigated but I can't see why it would be.