You can check them out at: http://www.pokertableratings.com/blo...n-poker-stars/

They were full ring. I suppose you could call them marginal winners but in ratholer terms it was decent. They seem to have been earning somewhere around 0.5BB/100 at all stakes overall.

Do you ever play the 40-100 bb tables or just 20-50 bb tables?

It probably isn't fair for me to make a generalization about the masses as some 100bb players will be the exception to the rule, and some SS'ers will be the exception.

From my experience there isn't much of a difference between the top SS'ers and 100bb players relative to overall poker IQ. Both are accurate with preflop 3bet ranges, and both are good at postflop play (pot control, etc.)



1. I learned everything on my own. There are not videos available to the public that I'm aware of. I've made a few videos for my students in the past, but do not host them for download.

2. Anything that is positive.

3. I've been playing a few lately. They seem to be softer than 6max, however, they go soooooooo sloooooow, definitely not the optimal way to accumulate massive amounts of VPP's (i.e. going for a VPP record), would be nice if Stars increased the max tables for full ring.

4. Stakes such as the $1/2 are highly recreational, it's offered in casinos all over the world. If (and it's a big IF) the majority of games happen to die off some day in the future, players will move down, and higher stakes will slowly die out like $5/10, until they play like the current $10/20 for example where bumhunting is pretty much the staple, but the grinder level will only go so low imo.. stakes like $1/2 and possibly $2/4 will likely survive just about anything because they fit the recreational players income so well... but yes, the regulars at these stakes will continue to improve, and you will need to continue to improve and adjust to some degree to continue to profit.

5. No, I grew up very poor until my teenage years. I was even homeless as a child for a few months when I was 5. I think it's the reason that I'm somewhat frugal today. I don't feel very comfortable making silly prop bets, but I do enjoy watching others do it.


I use to say 50k hands a few years ago, then 100k hands, and at the beginning of this year I said a few hundred thousand hands. But I'm learning that the game is so dynamic, human beings are dynamic, we develop leaks as a result of some of the strangest sets of circumstances, and all this leads me to begin throwing sample sizes out the window for the most part.

Just because you played well your last 100k hands is no indication that you will play well the next 100k hands.. there are just too many variables. I don't think a player will ever know their true winrate, because such a thing doesn't actually exist.


Just my two cents: There is a massive difference between SS'ing full ring SSNL, and SS'ing 6max MSNL-HSNL. I don't even know where to begin when describing the differences. I would bet my bankroll that someone cannot currently create a bot that could beat MSNL-HSNL 6max.

I play both sometimes. But 40-100bb tables are pretty awful for VPP accumulation fwiw. The overall VPIP's are generally higher at the 20-50bb tables because fish gravitate toward the shallow game, making game selection better there, and rakeback higher.

Interesting. But two things come to mind. (1) With the PS program, you don't have to be a winning a player to be a profitable player, right?. And (2) the more "sophisticated" bots can collude with each other automatically. I'm not sure if that was the case with this particular article, but it most likely is. Knowing more than 2 hole cards is a massive advantage that no level human "dynamism" can overcome. I think it's pick-'em odds that a bot that can beat this game already exists.

Hi! I played with you quite a bit before I moved to mostly Rush. FTP lets us take bathroom breaks, it's pretty sweet.

You should buy in bigger and rathole less. Engaging in and encouraging that behavior is absolutely horrid for the poker economy, and you could probably win fullstacked anyway...

-Would you say your illness has contributed to your ability/desire to play 10-14 hrs/day, or has it been a source of detriment?
-What have you spent money on? Do you own a house? What do you drive? I know you're frugal, but how frugal?
-Why did you go homeless for months at age 5? Where did you sleep?
-How poor until your teens, and why did you stop being poor in your teens?
-What was your first "real job"?
-Do you enjoy the perceived benefits of being a professional poker player (independence, write your own hours, no boss, choose your income etc) or do you miss the structure and social life a more normal job provides?

Sent you a PM btw.

1. I'm 100% certain I can win fullstacking. I've made a good living fullstacking for years, I've made a good living shortstacking for years. Sometimes I full stack now when I'm in the mood, but this isn't all that common these days. Fullstacking is not > than SS'ing imo (though I realize this is the perception of the general 2p2 community.. or at least the most vocal posters express this point). I currently shortstack because I want to.

2. Yeah, the irony is that the illness drives me to succeed, and yet if I was healthy, I could be a lot more successful, but if I was healthy.. would I be so driven? I can only speculate the answer to that. Of course if I could choose, having good health would always reign supreme.

3. I'm not overly frugal, but I'm most certainly far from "baller." I drive the same Chevy Equinox I bought when I was working for HP back in 2005. So no poker winnings have ever gone towards a new car. I'm seriously considering using some FPP's for a new car soon though, but it's hard to justify since I don't drive much.. but not everything we do requires justification. I don't own a house, I currently rent an apartment with my girlfriend. I plan on house shopping next year, but I have been "house shopping" on and off since 2007, so we'll see. The majority of the money I have spent can be broken in to 4 categories:

A) Medical/Health: Approx $100k over the last few years.
B) My girlfriend: I like to buy her nice things. As well as a hefty engagement ring tucked away safely for a future proposal.
C) Gifts for others: I like treating my parents/sister to nice gifts on their birthdays and Christmas.. buying things for other people gives me more pleasure than buying things for myself. I pretty much feel like I have everything I need already.
D) Keeping my grindstation up to date. I'm never frugal when investing back into the business.

4. I was homeless because there was no income coming in, nothing saved, and no one to help out. My parents hit a very unfortunate set of circumstance leading up to that point. We lived in an old tent on some unoccupied land in east Texas. The tent wasn't even waterproof anymore for some reason, so it was pretty pointless shelter during heavy rains. Looking back on what my parents went though and understanding it now that I'm older I realize just how important it is never to judge others. You really don't know what a person has gone through that has lead them to their current circumstances. Don't be too prideful to think something couldn't happen to you if you were encountered with the same sequence of life altering situations.

5. My mother couldn't work for years, and my father couldn't get work for reasons I won't go into. My father is a great man and extremely ambitious, but life kept stacking the odds against him. Until one day he read in the classified ads about a new startup company called Compaq looking for some workers to assemble personal computers in the Houston area. My dad applied and was hired almost immediately as employee #155. In a year he became a line supervisor, in another year he became a line manager, then a floor manager, then a warehouse manager, then they sent him to college at the University of Houston, and he became a purchasing manager, and then a purchasing director, and now he is a VP. I couldn't be more proud of his accomplishments.

6. I worked as a Program Manager for HP for 4 years after college (2001-2005).

7. Freedom! It's the primary reason I pursued my professional poker career. I will never go back to the corporate world. Never say never unless you're Kevin Thurman talking about working for a corporation, then it's okay.

You might want to edit your surname out, there are some wacky laws on the books in a few states:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/57...online-900339/

i feel kinda ashamed to say that, but my respect for shortstackers increased a lot... im honestly impressed with all your dedication on answering all these questions with so much details and clearly trying to help others (even tho thats the point of a Well ) not measuring efforts to do so...

you are definitely an inspiration... wish you the best in life kevin...

How much do you rely on your hud? Is there any point of playing shortstack when you normally full stack, or playing full stack when you normally short stack, just to throw off people's data on you?

What do u think of Randy Moss and will he fit in, in Tennessee?

How much money and at what odds would it take for you to take a prop bet about at least breaking even on the tables playing 100bb+ at 5/10 on Stars over 200k hands over a reasonable time period; perhaps 2 months? I know most full stackers are willing to put their money where their mouth is on this topic and you could definitely get a ton of action.

To think I already respect you a ton, it's amazing what your family has been through. Your father's life (if I may say so), is a bigger inspiration. Hats off to you both and such inspiring experiences you guys have!

best and worst days ever in poker$?

I remember buying your db many years ago and it was a huge help at the time. Glad to see that you're still doing quite well.

say what?

You are assuming you get the same amount of hands in each position. This does not happen.

So your script auto joins you on waiting list and it auto close the game if you have more then 20bb (when joing the game)? Or is the script just doing the leaving part?

how can I get this?

very interesting stuff and nice work ethic obviously.

My big question: at what point is SNE not "worth it" compared to ordinary work? Clearly you are making plenty from rakeback even if you may end up losing a couple of thousand or more on a bad month. But I really wonder about the more marginal SNE.

I ask this because a friend (well more of an acquaintance) who was always into poker decided to quit his job and go for SNE this year. He will probably succeed in doing so, even playing small-stakes (no higher than 1/2). But he has lost over 20k at the tables and probably will lose more before the end of the year. Since he's not great at tournaments I don't necessarily think he's going to get much value from the WCOOP tournaments tickets or $10k entries.

So at the end of the year he's making perhaps $80k in milestones and bonuses, while losing maybe $25k at the tables. So it works out to <$5k a month in "profit". Given that he's a losing player I don't imagine he'll be moving up to midstakes, so this is kind of the plateau.

Do you still feel like grinding poker would be worth it if you were only making a marginal monthly income? I guess I'm asking if you feel the freedom is still worth it at that level. Given your background it sounds like you could clearly make >$5k/month in the business world not to mention the benefits like pension, paid holidays and vacation, etc etc. Do you have some sort of mental threshold below which it just wouldn't be worth it to play poker and you would just shrug and do something else?

Haven't read the entire thread so apologies if this has already been addressed.

verstehen, while ur numbers for his profit may be correct for this year, think that instead of 2 10k tourneys, he can take 10k cash for one of them. also, the real benefits of SNE r felt the year after achieveing it, since next year he will have a 5x FPP multiplier on his vpps earned as opposed to 3.5x this year.

Basicaly, if there r no jobs where he would be earning 60k per year, then achieving SNE is worth is even losing 40k per year at the tables

verstehen, while ur numbers for his profit may be correct for this year, think that instead of 2 10k tourneys, he can take 10k cash for one of them. also, the real benefits of SNE r felt the year after achieveing it, since next year he will have a 5x FPP multiplier on his vpps earned as opposed to 3.5x this year.

Basically, if there r no jobs where he would be earning 60k per year, then achieving SNE is worth is even losing 40k per year at the tables

I know that of course but I still have the same question, at what level is it just not worth it to pursue SNE if you're losing a good portion of it back over the year?

I think my friend still thinks it's worth it and better than the alternative, just wondering where a more successful SNE draws the line.

beer, saw your grindstation on your blog, pretty sweet set up. I am in the process of building my next PC and just want to a few details about yours. what processor do you run and do you find it sufficient. How much RAM and what else would you consider essential for a multiscreen setup such as yours? Also, do you ever play on you laptop? and if you do, how many tables?

biggest downswing? did you ever doubt it all and your ability to do it?

A job that is "worth 60k" has a substantially lower annual income level than 60k. At most any full time job you're also getting healthcare, dental, matching IRA deposits and opting in to government programs such as unemployment. To say nothing of sick days, vacation, etc. 60k poker is probably more like 40k 'real world'. Most people are definitely -EV playing poker wealth wise, but the freedom is near priceless. And if you're willing to move you can turn 60k into more like 100-150k spending power. At least before the dollar started to become a fan of sky diving.