Apologies if this is posted in the wrong area.

I am looking for a UK Lawyer to pursue a claim against an online poker site. Can anyone recommend a firm?

Cheers

Probably better to just google UK lawyer and look that way, I doubt there are enough people who have been in your situation here that would offer substantive advice.

Should post why you are trying to go after them to see if it would even be worth your time

So you tried resolution through the gaming commission already? Because if not, that's all any lawyer will tell you

Thanks for the replies guys.

I don't want to post details because I don't want to jeopardise my claim. In the hope that this does no damage, I won a prize and they are refusing to pay me, and have locked my account, and (vaguely) accused me of collusion.

I am currently pursuing the relevant gaming authority. However, corresponding with them feels like they are part of the gaming company. It has been over 6 months now, so is at a stage where I need to take it further. They have said that my complaint via them does not preclude me from taking legal action and that's what I wish to do now.

I was hoping that there would be a poker playing lawyer, or just a lawyer, who could recommend someone with gaming experience. Or potentially just a lawyer with an interest who would be happy to take the case on. All I can find are lawyers who are experts in gaming licencing, so will doubtless act for firms within the industry and are unlikely to able to get involved due to conflict of interest.

Any help would be very gratefully received.

Have you contacted the UKGC? All UK sites have to be licensed through them now, you'd imagine they'll be more professional than the previous regulators. If you asked the site who to contact they've likely pointed you to their off-shore regulator (more likely to take their side).

Regarding the bolded part of your post, some of them will simply ask the site what to say. I had an issue with Sky once and whoever was regulating them at the time (Alderney possibly) sent back word-for-word what I had already received from Sky themselves. It can be frustrating but if you're innocent hopefully the UKGC should help.

It just allows a lot of armchair lawyers to assert that what they heard from the bloke down the pub must be true and give horrible advice. Like this:

No lawyer would tell you to do that. The UKGC is not a body that intervenes in disputes between consumers and its licensees so it is not even possible.

The UKGC provides licenses after receipt of evidence that satisfies them as to an applicants fitness to run a gambling site. It ensures licensees operate an 'independent appeals process.' As we are all aware, these independent appeal bodies are not truly independent; nor are they your only recourse if you have a complaint or disagreement.

To OP; The agreement between yourself and the gaming company concerned is a form of contract; so you require a (preferably consumer) contract law specialist. There are many solicitors practising in this area as I think it is one of the compulsory seats a trainee solicitor must do. I suggest you approach a reputable medium to large sized firm. You can find potential solicitors on the Law Societies webpage. Most should allow you a 30 minute consultation to determine whether you have a claim and provide a rough estimation as to their required costs. My only experience of solicitors as I did not continue past my degree is an ex-girlfriend who as a trainee solicitor in a mid sized firm was charging her clients £195/hr.

If the amount involved is not substantial, you may wish to investigate your case and represent yourself. This may be slightly complicated by possible jurisdiction (where a case is heard and considered) issues. Consider whether this whole thing is worth your time now; if the defendant is a small shady company you may find it asset poor and thus unable to pay its debts even if you succeed in court action. Even a big company that is clearly registered in the UK may force you to expend considerable time and money in further legal action appointing HCEOs (High Court Enforcement Officers) before paying up.

Good Luck.

Even if you took this to court the matter rests on the fact whether they have supporting evidence. Have you asked the company to show their evidence of your supposed wrongdoing. You may have inadvertently made moves that may support their case. If they fail to provide a reasonable request that may work in your favour. Personally if i knew i was right, I would offer to pay for a lie detector test from a company of their choosing. In court you would need a water tight case as they would bring in a gaming security professional who would give damning evidence. Finally, the court may not get it and make the wrong decision. A true case, Dealer dealing blackjack is in collusion with customer for several weeks. Keeps busting deliberately and paying losing hands. Same customer plays with same dealer every day. When security finally wakes up and catches him, he gets sacked and casino takes dealer to court. Dealer wins in court, im no cheat im just bad at adding numbers. Good luck.

yeah but it depends to what extent I mean key factors did you have 20 tables going at once? if so a misclck could lead to an unusual play its a mistake many players have made if you had only one table going Id find your case hard to believe though.

are we talking about one or two hands or a series of hands have you ever been affliated in any tangible way with the other players on the table?

and which site is it?

This is a lot of bad advice. OP - I hope you PM me and I can help.

I would love to connect you with someone with extensive experience in online gaming (who I have worked extensively with).

Perfection posted the only really relevant thing here - it's going to depend on the specifics of the case, the money at stake, and the contracts far more than anything else. That's how British law works. Contract >>>> everything else. You can have a smoking gun and if the contract says otherwise it's going to be maybe 60-40 or 65-35 in your favor at trial.

If there isn't enough money at stake, it's never, ever going to make sense for you to even dip your toe in the water. U.K litigation is extraordinarily expensive. Also, if you are not a U.K resident you are going to have to put up "Security for Costs" which is effectively escrow - if you lose, you will have to pay about 70% of the other sides legal costs out of that money. If you win, they'll pay about 70% of yours. But the amount of money to go through trial - that you have escrow - can be prohibitive for 99% of people.

I'm not sure how you can PM me with 2 posts, but I'll be happy to put you in direct connection with the right person (though the prices are higher than Perfection mentions).

The individual I have in mind has worked for and against gaming commissions in the U.K before. He also happens to be an avid poker player.

In re-reading your post, it sounds like the "prize" may be significant money but if it was $5,000 or $10,000 or $20,000 that isn't going to get you past an initial assessment of the merits of your case and maybe a demand letter. That's like the first letter of the alphabet - if that - in litigation.

On the other hand, claims under 10k GBP go to small claims court and you might pursue that. You don't need a lawyer for that (at least in the U.S) though if you win it's often hard to collect.

This.

Or the size of the prize and the size of your bankroll. And your risk tolerance.

For some perspective, a B+/A- London law-firm could EASILY charge 500,000 GBP to get through trial -- and fairly easily twice that. At the lower end you're looking at 200,000 GBP at least, and probably another 50,000 to 100,000 with all the BS that leads up to filing suit - of which there is a lot.

Perfection's rough idea of 195 GBP for an associate is probably right in some less expensive scenarios, but the way law-firms work is that you also have to pay for the Partner (even if he doesn't do much) and he's going to bill much more than that.

I can't imagine litigation will make sense unless the prize is sufficiently large(r) than we seem to be guessing.

Of course you could always get someone on contingency -- but it would have to be worth your time and they would have to be sufficiently sure you were going to win in order to take it. That's an unlikely mix to find.

This isn't going to help you one bit but just as a ref point or some too long did not read.

I used to drink and deposit 1k, 1k, 1k £ and play full roll on the table.

One night I lost 2x1k, then played some idiot and ran my money back up to cover my losses and then draw 1k ahead., so total around 4k or what ever, might have been just a touch above at 4.3k UK £

This is a site I used to flip 1k on roulette there as well so I'm not the brightest guy, I played against totally unknown people.

I went to withdraw my money after seeing sense and getting that 1k ahead...
They froze my account, said the player that was an idiot fish and I, were colluding...lol

I work in an investment bank over ten years..
IT worker for more than 15 years... was making 1k just going in on a Sunday for over time projects etc.. As if I am going to be stupid enough to deposit £1k, £1k LOSE that money, and then play some one to have just the same amount of money put back in my account plus £1k.. oh and I lost more than that playing their roulette..

Where is the human element in these departments?
They look for people to victimize, they are not interested if you are innocent, that is the last point of interest.

I mean just sitting here thinking about this now 5 years later or what ever it is, is this why today people broadcast their playing on twitch and stuff? to show they are not collaborating? is this some thing players need to do who have large amounts on line?

I am never playing full roll again on any site not just for the fact that it is a losing way to play poker but than when you go to try to take your money out of the site, its dangerous that some computer formula some place or some thing will lock your account as suspected fraud.

I think I will never hold more than £2k on any one site just in case I run into this insane security departments.

Just to make my point about their actually being people out there that are innocent I wont even name the site or network, from that I hope people take it that I am actually telling the truth and not posting this to make any damage to any site in revenge or what ever.

Any poker security people if you are reading this, when you make accusations about people colluding please be very careful in what you are doing because you DO GET IT WRONG. I did not need to have any money laundered into my account and I provided to your type offices over 5 years worth of my bank statements of my life and my income stream and you still kept my money for nothing, for fun... you are disgusting, criminal.

If a poker site makes a statement like they feel a player is doing some thing wrong, then you return their money and ban them, and there should be some penalty that if one player is victimized and found to actually be innocent these security staff and departments and sites should have to pay HEAVLY to either the player or some charity or some thing, like a million dollars or some thing for gross mis conduct.


This is one part of poker I hope to never have to deal with, it can take a huge amount of your life explaining yourself or on calls, backwards and forwards with email communication.


if the money is low around £5k or so just forget it and move on with your life, you wont get any where, these security people are scum, when you explain to them clearly you are not doing any thing wrong and clearly show as much and YOU ARE ACTUALLY INNOCENT but it means less than nothing and falls on deaf ears, well what are you meant to make of that, what are you meant to do?


sorry for the rant, sorry to the other player in a hard spot about his prize, pretty sure he is innocent, see how he is not complaining or talking sht.. straight I need a lawyer.

A lot of speculation in this thread, not a lot of it accurate. To correct some points:

In particular lie detector tests are of zero relevance or value. You crazy foreigners.

A London firm is not going to charge £500k to get a claim of this nature to trial (assuming that, say, £25k is in dispute). There is practically zero chance of it being sufficiently complex and/or document intensive. In any event unless it's a claim in seven or more figures no-one in their right mind would propose charging, never mind pay, such a disproportionate sum. In any event your lawyer will discuss costs with you at the outset and then frequently as things progress. It's not as though you'd say "hey, please get my prize for me" and then get a bill for half a million two years later. Nonetheless, Revlis is right to emphasise that litigation isn't cheap.

Having said that, litigation in the UK might seem expensive to some but in fact it is generally not. Not only is it much cheaper than jurisdictions like the US, but you shouldn't forget the overriding principle that in general the losing party at trial will often have to pay a substantial proportion of the prevailing party's costs. This makes a significant difference (and underpins parties' approaches to ADR and early settlement as well as to court proceedings themselves). Everything's (supposedly at least) geared to dealing with things efficiently (and indeed staying away from court where possible). On top of that there is a range of courts in which claims can be brought (for example there is a small claims track, as someone mentioned - although I doubt that would be a good idea with a claim involving specialist law and evidence as may be the case here).

Perfection's indication of £195/hr for a trainee in a mid-level London firm is not a bad ballpark figure. But you're not going to have a trainee running your case (in fact you can't). What is important though is budget. Let's say the decent (but not stellar) London firm of your choosing will charge you a blended rate of £350-£400/hr for its lawyers. You will probably need several thousand pounds just to get things off the ground. Many more to get through to trial (but of course the priority will be to resolve the dispute as quickly and cheaply as possible). If several thousand pounds is squarely within budget (and worth it in the context of how much money you think you're owed, then I could suggest a number of firms to speak to. If not, then you should look at smaller (but still reputable) firms. You don't necessarily need one of the big boys. Again, I could help with recommendations.

Note, too, there is no such thing as "British law". English law is a thing, but we don't yet know whether it applies. What is particularly relevant is (a) where you are domiciled; (b) where the poker site is domiciled and regulated; and (c) most of all what law governs your relationship with the site - this will be set out in its terms and conditions and is a key piece of information. Also important is what those terms say about the forum for resolving disputes. Is it the English courts? Or do you in fact need to sue elsewhere (or go to arbitration etc)?

OP, Google is going to be pretty hit and miss when it comes to finding a suitable lawyer.

Have a think about these points though. And participate some more in this thread (without revealing the site you want to sue or indeed any more information than you need to: you're correct to be cautious). Pitch in with some strategy threads or something elsewhere. Once you get PM rights, send me a PM and I'll give you some suggestions.

Disclaimer: none of the above is intended to be legal advice and it should not be relied upon as such.

Thanks again everyone, some great help/advice.

Revils, you appear intelligent and articulate (and British) so i'd like to get in touch and take your advice. How do I send a PM?! Are you able to send me one if I don't have privileges yet? I don't normally get involved in forums (usually read only) and I only joined for the purposes of this post.

It is not life changing money but well worth pursuing, and I was hoping to progress on a no win no fee basis.

If I ever get paid i'll be using some of it for coaching, so you have an incentive to get involved:-)

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/fa...faq_disabledpm

Just something to consider but perhaps stating your case on here might be the best option. I get that it could damage your future case. But if you read some of the threads on here about customer complaints you'll see that this forum can get a site to re-consider the case due to public perception.

Which part of the costs are usually higher, the court fees or the lawyer fees?

Is there somehow a list of the court fees available?

was on phone, not really interested in what the ukgc does or whether or not they're who the OP would need to go to - the point is that there's options for alternative dispute resolution, and in english civil law it's kind of important to try to use that avenue before releasing the lawyers. it'd be cheaper for a start.

why not small claims court if it's less than £10k?

Until last month the court fees were negligible. The Government put them up ~600%, a move which has pleased no-one. Currently being challenged.

Anyway, to issue a claim in the High Court you now have to pay a court fee of 5% of the claim (capped at £10k for claims for £200k+). Fees for claims below £10k are slightly different and run as low as £35 for a claim for no more than £300. Full details are published on the HMCTS website - you need leaflet EX50.

Generally you'll pay your lawyers more than the court fees. If a claim runs all the way to trial quite a bit more.

Bear in mind that most disputes are resolved without anyone ever issuing a claim. So the court fees might not be needed at all (whereas you'll still be paying the lawyers). Discussing them is somewhat premature, as no-one's established that there's a claim in law here at all. While I don't dispute OP's belief that he is entitled to recover, step 1 is to take proper legal advice.

This all assumes, of course, that OP has decided to resolve the dispute by retaining someone to argue his case, as he seems to have done (an alternative would be to try publicising it here, as has been suggested).

Yes, but the starting point is to understand your legal position. You do that by getting legal advice. Part of that advice will concern the various ways in which the dispute might be resolved. If the matter is pursued, those avenues will be explored. Heading into mediation without a decent understanding of the merits of the underlying legal position would be the equivalent of playing out a hand without looking at your cards.

Lots of people in this thread appear to be confusing consulting a lawyer with issuing court proceedings. The latter will only ever be a last resort. No good lawyer is going to push you towards court unless it's the only appropriate step. In the UK at least something in the region of only 5-10% of issued claims are resolved at trial. Everything else is sorted out much sooner (and beyond that 90-95% is a whole world of disputes where no claim is issued at all).

If the point of getting legal advice (and possibly trying to resolve the dispute in court) is to get a proper determination of a complex issue, the small claims court is probably not the place to do it. There is no real scope in that process for any serious analysis of complicated legal points. It's great for getting a court order to compel someone to repay a debt. While that may be the helicopter view of OP's problem, the poker site clearly doesn't see itself as bound to pay, so presumably there is a case to be made for each side of the dispute.

The county courts may be a suitable venue; otherwise the High Court. The sum claimed will be one factor but not the only factor.

On top of all of this lies the question I posed OP yesterday: what does the dispute resolution clause in the site's terms say? It may give jurisdiction to the English courts, but it may equally require the dispute to be resolved in arbitration, say (not likely to be much fun for OP; essentially expensive private litigation). There are alternatives to contractually agreed jurisdiction in limited circumstances, but that will be the starting point.

OP, could you at least elaborate as to which site this is with?

Thanks for all responses.

I really don't want to publicise details (certainly not yet), as I do not want to jeopardise any legal action that may be required. If I provide details of the prize/win, then it will be obvious and would certainly expose the network. In addition, I remain in correspondence with the regulator, and it may well be (notwithstanding my previous comment re the closeness of the relationship between regulator & site) that after full investigation they accept my contentions, apologise for the error and make recompense. If there is a forum thread (here or elsewhere), basically slagging off the network/site I imagine that likelihood will be decreased! My limited forum experience suggests that is what the thread will turn into.

If the outcome is favourable, I will give details and also credit to the network/site for that. If it is not, I will also publish full details, less the credit, and doubtless a few choice words of warning for would be players on the site/network.

For the time being I am just hoping that a Brit knows someone or knows of someone who could help me from a legal standpoint.

Thunderbolts, you sound well versed in the British legal structure and process - are you that guy?:-)

FWIW, the T&Cs are unclear and ambiguous at best.