Not sure where to start here but I started working with wizard and playing 6max turbo sng's. As an MTT player I figured it might be a good way to supplement my bankroll.

I haven't played a large sample but after 200 games of the $87 6max on stars I have a 0% roi. Looking at the leaderboards on sharkscope I see that the best players in these have about a 3-5% roi. This got me thinking are these even worth playing? With the huge amount of variance in these is it worth it to long term grind out 3 dollars a game? Wouldn't these players that grind these be better off spending there time playing MTT's?

Looking into it more it seems as though the best online MTT grinders are making much more money than the best turbo SNG grinder. I am really not sure where I am going with this but seeing a guy at the top of the leaderboard for 87dollar 6max turbos with a 5% roi just made me ask myself "what the hell am I doing".

I guess I am hoping this will just open up a discussion.

they have less variance than MTTs

you can play a lot of games quickly and rack up VPPs

the best players are making more than $3/game

not saying they are more profitable than other games, but people have their reasons and for them they are worth playing

Maybe if you play large field sunday million type tourneys all the time.....but if you play 100-300 player fields I can't see how these can ever have less variance.

True...I can see that.

No they are not. The #2 player for sharkscope 5-6max turbo sng's 30-100 dollar buy in has averaged 7$ over his last 500 games. When you click on him you see that long term he averages about 3-4$ a game.

Go check out the leaderboards.

Like what??? (Besides vpp's)

a set of 6max turbos takes me under an hour start to finish (including registering) for 15-20 games. Can't do that in Mtts

That's just not true. You will see larger downswings on a regular basis in 180 mans than 6max. You need more BIs for MTTs, pretty common knowledge there.

I don't need to check out the leaderboards. How can you leave out rakeback? Now it is $3 or $4 a game? When you look at someone's lifetime $/game, there is a very good chance their current $/game is higher because they have gotten better.

lower variance than MTTs, fairly formulaic, ez to get in volume, fits their skillset, etc. The VPP/bonuses part is very significant so saying "besides VPPs" is silly

I guess if you can hit off that much volume and play well 3 dollars a game is not bad but I bet long term you could early more in MTT's.

Yes, but you don't need to commit 5+ hours for a session in 6max sngs.

If you want to play for one hour then take a break and go back, you can do that. Tournaments just don't offer that type of flexibility.

I guess cash games are even more flexible in that sense, but I enjoy sngs much more

Maybe the turbo's on stars...but I am talking about good structured (deep or reb) tourneys with about 100-300 runners. No way these have more variance than hyper turbo 6-maxes.

3 or 4....whatever....its not that much you pick...and 3-4 is at the 87 dollar level....thats going to be sick variance. Very good chance that it has gotten worse too because of the evolution of everyone elses games and the regulars adjusting.

Just asking from more reasons than VPP's not saying they are silly.

That is another good point. It just seems really gross that a 5% roi is considered excellent. That edge is so small.

5% ROI is perfectly fine when you realize @ $3/game, a good multitabler can make up to $60 an hour doing sets of 20.

And as someone else in the thread mentioned, from start to finish you're only committed for an hour.

While a MTT session can run anywhere from 4 to 10 hours depending on how the session goes. And it's not like ROI's in MTT's are absurdly high.

For hourly rate, unless your ABI is pretty high, lowering your ROI due to skill playing a part the higher you go, you might be better off with the 6max STT's.

Not everyone wants to sit down for 10 hours at a computer when they can just sit for an hour each time and make similar money.

Dude op, I don't think you're going to change your mind regardless of how many people post valid reasons so why even ask?

qft

and wtf makes you think a 6 man tournament will have the same variance as a 300 man tournament??

Don't know what qft means.

Structure....maybe not super long term but these things have brutal short term variance if a 3 percent roi is pretty good.

I asked because I want to know. VPP's and short time commitment are good reasons. I was just wondering and still am why the people that I see playing these seem to grind them for about 12 hours a day........so there goes the time commitment argument. Wouldn't these player be better off in MTT's?

People choose where they want to play. They believe for whatever reason their life EV (time, money, emotions) will be highest playing those rather than MTTs. As everyone values those three items differently, 6max turbo sng players believe that is best for them in their current situation. Thats why people play different games and different stakes all at different times.

Here are my thoughts on SNG's

1. Formulaic type of game (Less finesse involved)
2. Better Flexibility (Cant just say you'll be done in 10 minutes in the middle of an MTT if the boys call to go out)
3. Less Variance (In 6-max SNG's 33% of the field cashes, tournies 10-15%)
4. Able to multi-table more games.
5. Great way earn VPP's
6. Less emotionally stressing (Go deep in an MTT and not cash thats a 3 to 4 hour committment, SNG thats 10 minutes and you can fire up another SNG and start back where you ended at the final table).

looks like OP doesnt understand "variance"

I thought more players = more variance was common knowledge

i think that gold time for 6 max sng is over and maybe over 1 year ago yet. Just learn hu sng or play tournaments or cash games .

Why do you think that?

The 6 mans are worth playing due to softness alone. Lots of rec players who just want a fast game and don't know the formula to beating SNG's.

If the structure is exactly the same...yes. The better structure in deep or rebuy mtt's cuts back on variance drastically. But yes super long term I agree that these must have less.

Where are the soft ones. Pokerstars $87 satties to the sunday million and warm-up often seem to just be loaded with regulars.

3bux a game times 3000 games = 9000 per month plus bonuses.

Because most players cannot get in the huge volumes required for MTT's in order to determine a true ROI there is this misconception that ROI for MTT's can be mega. It's not all what it seems. A few good results in MTT's mean that you often see large ROI's for some players. The truth is that they have not (and in some cases never will) put in the required amount of games to rule out positive variance.

For Turbo 6max sng's a ROI of 5% is fine because you can play loads of these per hour and it's $per hour that is what you should be looking at and not ROI per game.

Anyway, if you prefer MTT's over 6max SnG's then just play MTT's.