No one asked for your opinion, <B

Hey morAn the no limit structure isn't industry standard either. All games get raked fairly or we all suffer. If you want further proof, just look at the "poker legislation" threads. The biggest fear about future regulated online poker in USA is that with the big 2 gone an un-fair rake structure is going to forever cripple poker.

That is excellent news. Thank you for the update. Thank you DTB and thank you Merge!

That is an excellent point.

any update?

Hi everyone,

Has anyone one heard anything about if Merge is going to make their rake more in-line with the industry?

The below rake structure is absolutely horrible.

Keep in mind, this is per hand.

Pot--- PS-- FT--Merge
$70 $3.00 $3.00 $3.00
$69 $2.00 $3.00 $3.00
$68 $2.00 $3.00 $3.00
$67 $2.00 $3.00 $3.00
$66 $2.00 $3.00 $3.00
$65 $2.00 $3.00 $3.00
$60 $2.00 $3.00 $3.00
$59 $2.00 $2.00 $2.95
$58 $2.00 $2.00 $2.90
$57 $2.00 $2.00 $2.85
$56 $2.00 $2.00 $2.80
$55 $2.00 $2.00 $2.75
$54 $2.00 $2.00 $2.70
$53 $2.00 $2.00 $2.65
$52 $2.00 $2.00 $2.60
$51 $2.00 $2.00 $2.55
$50 $2.00 $2.00 $2.50
$49 $2.00 $2.00 $2.45
$48 $2.00 $2.00 $2.40
$47 $2.00 $2.00 $2.35
$46 $2.00 $2.00 $2.30
$45 $2.00 $2.00 $2.25
$44 $2.00 $2.00 $2.20
$43 $2.00 $2.00 $2.15
$42 $2.00 $2.00 $2.10
$41 $2.00 $2.00 $2.05
$40 $2.00 $2.00 $2.00
$39 $1.00 $1.00 $1.95
$38 $1.00 $1.00 $1.90
$37 $1.00 $1.00 $1.85
$36 $1.00 $1.00 $1.80
$35 $1.00 $1.00 $1.75
$34 $1.00 $1.00 $1.70
$33 $1.00 $1.00 $1.65
$32 $1.00 $1.00 $1.60
$31 $1.00 $1.00 $1.55
$30 $1.00 $1.00 $1.50
$29 $1.00 $1.00 $1.45
$28 $1.00 $1.00 $1.40
$27 $1.00 $1.00 $1.35
$26 $1.00 $1.00 $1.30
$25 $1.00 $1.00 $1.25
$24 $1.00 $1.00 $1.20
$23 $1.00 $1.00 $1.15
$22 $1.00 $1.00 $1.10
$21 $1.00 $1.00 $1.05
$20 $1.00 $1.00 $1.00

Also note the Merge Network rakes for pots under $20, the other sites don't.
$19 $0.00 $0.00 $0.95
$18 $0.00 $0.00 $0.90
$17 $0.00 $0.00 $0.85
$16 $0.00 $0.00 $0.80
$15 $0.00 $0.00 $0.75
$14 $0.00 $0.00 $0.70
$13 $0.00 $0.00 $0.65
$12 $0.00 $0.00 $0.60
$11 $0.00 $0.00 $0.55
$10 $0.00 $0.00 $0.50
$9 $0.00 $0.00 $0.45
$8 $0.00 $0.00 $0.40
$7 $0.00 $0.00 $0.35
$6 $0.00 $0.00 $0.30
$5 $0.00 $0.00 $0.25
$4 $0.00 $0.00 $0.20
$3 $0.00 $0.00 $0.15
$2 $0.00 $0.00 $0.10
$1 $0.00 $0.00 $0.05
$0 $0.00 $0.00 $0.00

All sites have a no flop, no drop policy.

This is per hand, +50% rakeback doesn't even come close to making up the difference.

This is such a horrible comment. Just cause you get owned in limit doesn't mean others don't like the game. Short handed limit is really fun and even fixed ring can be good to play. (Only like playing lots of tables when I play 9man.) Still when they rake a lot out of limit, that means a lot of money is taken out of poker on the site. Many people play limit then go to no limit. Players may play tourneys as well. Overall though the more rake means less money for everyone in the end to play with. I personally like playing both games and think rake should be fair for everyone.

^ You make a true point, but I disregarded his comment and he went away.

He obviously made and ignorant and narrow minded comment.

You realize that there is rake on PS and FTP right? I mean, seriously, if there isn't any rake, why did i get so many VPPs and have rake taken out of my pots? Sorry, that just tilted me a lot, because there IS rake taken out.

U sure about that cause OP compared all 3 and I'm pretty sure PS ans Tilt were 0 all the way through?
If u play limit less than 10/20 on Carbon now your in a bad spot.

Limit rake blows at every site I'm aware of except ps and ftp. Even ps and ftp should decrease it.

I just wanted to thank OP for a well thought out thread and as a Limit player I appreciate your efforts. Look forward to hearing Merge's decision.

Just want to state that your rake chart is incorrect. Stars does rake for pots below $20. Tilt also rakes below $20. Unless you are talking about $2-$4 limit games and higher.

Just wanted to add that it seems Stars is now charging 3 dollars at the 2-4 level 6 max games when the pot hits 70 dollars. If I'm not mistaken it used to be capped at 2 dollars for 6 max.

As I stated in my original post, my example was for $2/$4 LMT. Please read or reread it.


It's incorporated in my comparison(s). That's not new, they were doing that for years.
PS has a great rake structure for LMT Holdem players.


Yes.

As I stated in my original post, my example was for $2/$4 LMT.


However, I quickly did a comparison for $1/$2 LMT for pots under $20. And as you can see, it's still costs you extra $ to play LMT on Merge.


(Keep in mind, the below comparison is for pots under $20 using $1/$2 LMT as an example. For a comparison of $2/$4 and above, please see my comparison listed above (post #6 and post #81), (PS and FT do not rake pots < $20, Merge does).)

Pot------------------ PS----- FT---Merge---Difference
$20.00 - >=6 - - - - - 1.00 - 1.00 - $1.00 - - - 0.00
$19.50 - >=6 - - - - - 0.75 - 0.75 - $0.98 - - - 0.23
$19.00 - >=6 - - - - - 0.75 - 0.75 - $0.95 - - - 0.20
$18.50 - >=6 - - - - - 0.75 - 0.75 - $0.93 - - - 0.18
$18.00 - >=6 - - - - - 0.75 - 0.75 - $0.90 - - - 0.15
$17.50 - >=6 - - - - - 0.75 - 0.75 - $0.88 - - - 0.13
$17.00 - >=6 - - - - - 0.75 - 0.75 - $0.85 - - - 0.10
$16.50 - >=6 - - - - - 0.75 - 0.75 - $0.83 - - - 0.08
$16.00 - >=6 - - - - - 0.75 - 0.75 - $0.80 - - - 0.05
$15.50 - >=6 - - - - - 0.75 - 0.75 - $0.78 - - - 0.03
$15.00 - >=6 - - - - - 0.75 - 0.75 - $0.75 - - - 0.00
$14.50 - >=6 - - - - - 0.50 - 0.50 - $0.73 - - - 0.23
$14.00 - >=6 - - - - - 0.50 - 0.50 - $0.70 - - - 0.20
$13.50 - >=6 - - - - - 0.50 - 0.50 - $0.68 - - - 0.18
$13.00 - >=6 - - - - - 0.50 - 0.50 - $0.65 - - - 0.15
$12.50 - >=6 - - - - - 0.50 - 0.50 - $0.63 - - - 0.13
$12.00 - >=6 - - - - - 0.50 - 0.50 - $0.60 - - - 0.10
$11.50 - >=6 - - - - - 0.50 - 0.50 - $0.58 - - - 0.08
$11.00 - >=6 - - - - - 0.50 - 0.50 - $0.55 - - - 0.05
$10.50 - >=6 - - - - - 0.50 - 0.50 - $0.53 - - - 0.03
$10.00 - >=6 - - - - - 0.50 - 0.50 - $0.50 - - - 0.00
$9.50 -- >=6 - - - - - 0.25 - 0.25 - $0.48 - - - 0.23
$9.00 -- >=6 - - - - - 0.25 - 0.25 - $0.45 - - - 0.20
$8.50 -- >=6 - - - - - 0.25 - 0.25 - $0.43 - - - 0.18
$8.00 -- >=6 - - - - - 0.25 - 0.25 - $0.40 - - - 0.15
$7.50 -- >=6 - - - - - 0.25 - 0.25 - $0.38 - - - 0.13
$7.00 -- >=6 - - - - - 0.25 - 0.25 - $0.35 - - - 0.10
$6.50 -- >=6 - - - - - 0.25 - 0.25 - $0.33 - - - 0.08
$6.00 -- >=6 - - - - - 0.25 - 0.25 - $0.30 - - - 0.05
$5.50 -- >=6 - - - - - 0.25 - 0.25 - $0.28 - - - 0.03
$5.00 -- >=6 - - - - - 0.25 - 0.25 - $0.25 - - - 0.00

The Hero Poker CEO said we should hear something within a week. At least he said he owes us an answer by then, but he said they are working on making a change and just need to iron out some details on the software. The fact that there is talk of a big upcoming software release leads me to believe we will see the rake structure change at that point.

Sounds good to me. Thanks!

Thanks Ant for doing work on getting this to happen, very much appreciated.

bump

Has merge come to a resolution for this?

The RAKE killed limit holdem,its a fun game to play ,I prefer it much more then NL,but its more or less impossible to winn money on the lower stakes,so then ofc its gets boring and not a popular game,there are two factors to why people play,money and beacuse its fun.So now NL is more or less the only option,and alot of players stop playing NL every day beacuse its such a boring game,I think the sites would winn alot in the long run if they had playerpool that played both limit and NL to make it more fun,gets boring playing the same game every day.But nobody keeps playing a game if they dont/cant winn,and it maybe take some time for many begginers to realice that they cant beat the game,beacuse they dont understand its impossible beacuse of the rake,and everybody stops if they cant winn sooner or later,and when players are winning they tell friends and other player how much they winn and then they want to play and winn money to.

I earned over $1k in RB a month ago but barely play now, waiting for resolution of this first.

Merge has their head up their butt. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Merge probably wants more Limit traffic before changing the rake. But there is no way they are getting more Limit traffic until after they change the rake.

Poker Table Ratings illustrates the Limit situation very well. PTR has only been tracking Merge for a short while but the data is very informative. If you go to PTR>Tools>Top Winners and look at Merge's No Limit data you will see many players with over 10,000 hands. Search any blind level and you will see plenty of No Limit people playing plenty of hands. Now go and check the Limit data. There is almost no one with over 10,000 hands. Why? Because the rake is insanely high. It doesn't take long before players realize the Limit rake structure is horrible.

When I say the Limit rake structure is horrible, I'm not exaggerating. And any player who said the Limit rake structure isn't so bad didn't do their homework before opening their mouth. I'll try and make it simple. It is about Rake BB's/100. On a site like Poker Stars or Full Tilt the Rake BB's/100 might be something like 2.5 rake BB/100. On Merge it is like 5.5 rake BB/100. That is a 3 rake BB/100 difference between Merge and the industry standard. That difference is higher than a good player's win rate !!! A Poker Stars $1/2 6-max Limit Hold'em player winning at a respectable 2 BB/100 would be a loser if they were playing on Merge because of the difference in rake structure. That is pathetic.

Don't take my word for it, do some research. I don't want this do derail into the pros and cons of PTR, but take a look. There are plenty of Limit players on PS/FTP that have over a 100,000+ hands this year. The win rates for the best are in the 1.0 to 2.5 / 100 range. If those players had been playing on Merge they would be losers for no other reason than Merge's joke of a Limit rake structure.

Like I said, Merge has their heads up their butt. There are plenty of Limit players on other sites. Merge has taken 25-45% of their potential business and thrown it out the window because they don't understand a thing about poker. Merge is kind of in the franchise business, so our contact is with a skin and not Merge directly. You have to put pressure on the skins to get them to go to Merge and explain that the Limit rake structure needs to be changed.

I just withdrew my entire account balance thanks to this thread. Since I play limit games exclusively, there is no point in playing games I can't win.