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11-03-2009 , 05:48 AM

melfil

enthusiast

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 86

Is the information that Partypoker have on their site about the rakeback correct. If you play 100-200NL 6Max?

Gold 17.5%
Palladium 24%
Palladium 30%
Palladium Elite 40%

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11-03-2009 , 06:16 AM

thehempy

adept

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 977

I think thats while your clearing a bonus only...

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11-03-2009 , 06:51 AM

Lessu

Thailand Guru

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,069

Quote:

Originally Posted by melfil

Is the information that Partypoker have on their site about the rakeback correct. If you play 100-200NL 6Max?

Gold 17.5%
Palladium 24%
Palladium 30%
Palladium Elite 40%

Quote:

Originally Posted by thehempy

I think thats while your clearing a bonus only...

thehempy, nope.

the $3k bonus that you can buy for 20k points is about 20% in rakeback atm at 100nl 6-max

you only need to be standard palladium to be able to buy that

partyrep said they will make the points distribution fairer in the near future but for now it is a bit unbalanced

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11-03-2009 , 11:37 AM

melfil

enthusiast

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 86

Thanks a lot for the information Lessu.

So if you play 100NL you get 10% less rakeback from what Partypoker advertising.
I wounder if banks could get away with giving their customers 1/3 less intrest from what they were advertising

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11-03-2009 , 11:48 AM

Freudian

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 5,838

Quote:

Originally Posted by melfil

Considering they disclose exactly how many party points you get for each raked hand at each level and how many points the bonuses cost, I don't think you have a case here.

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11-03-2009 , 11:57 AM

melfil

enthusiast

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 86

I found some other information about this.
This guy have ran some calculations on it and have been in contact with Partypoker.

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Good evening everyone.

I have been playing at PartyPoker for some time now and I've been saving up my PartyPoints in order to cash in on their promised 30 % rakeback bonus : 3000 $ for 20000 PartyPoints.
Unfortenately, a quick study showed nothing could be farther from the truth for NL100 players like me.

Yesterday, I put in a 12 hour grinding session of 4 tabling, totalling 5100 hands played and all that hard labor earned me 550 PartyPoints.
A quick glance at my PokerTracker 3 Database for yesterday's play shows me that in those 5200 hands, I paid no less than 540 $ in rake (5.2 PTBB/100) and the table average was 496 $ of rake (4.77 PTBB/100) in rake.

This also means that on average, for 550 PartyPoints, the average hum-dum joe had to pay 496 $. If he were to grind it up to 20000 PartyPoints, he would have accumulated no less than 18036 $ in rake. I myself will have accumulated 19636 $ in rake.

Exchanging those 20000 PartyPoints to a promised 30% RB bonus of 3000 $ end up being a Rakeback equivalent of 16.6 % for your average Joe and 15.3 % for myself.

I can accept a smallish discrepancy between promised and actual rakeback rates because there isn't a one-on-one actual rake vs actual PP system to avoid it, but promising almost double of what you actually get is false and unacceptable advertising !

I sent them an email with my finding, I hope other players who play there will also look at how many PartyPoints a day of grinding has earned them and how much rake was paid for it (individually or table average) and make their own calculations. I also hope PokerStrategy will take notice and put pressure on the site to do something about this as they have already succumbed to PokerStrategy pressure on the Points System in the past.
Either the Points per Raked Hands must be reviewed for some limit, because for NL100SH, where rake is a mind boggling 4.5 to 5 PTBB/100 these days with the aggression at the tables, the point reward is ludacrously low.

If nothing is done soon, I'm leaving as soon as I get my bonus and never coming back again and will try to keep other away as well.
A genuinely disgusted customer.

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Ok, I'm not dropping this matter now...

I mailed PartyPoker to complain about the misleading advertizing :

Good evening,

[...]

Secondly, in the PartyPoints Store, you advertise that the 3000 $ for 20000 PP bonus is a 30 % Rakeback deal.
Running my PokerTracker database thought me that yesterday, I earned 550 PP and I paid 540 $ in rake.
A quick calculation shows me that your 3000$ for 20kPP is completely falsely advertized as 30 % rakeback as it's closer to 15-16 %.
I'm really, really, really dissatisfied with such false claims and hope those claims will be corrected somehow.
Promising double of what you are actually offering is scrupulous.

A disgruntled customer.
SonicXT

Their response :

Dear ***,

Thank you for contacting us.

[...]

In regard to your second question, please note that we give bonuses worth the equivalent of up to 40% rake-back for the 'Palladium Lounge Elite players'. That is, these players can buy bonuses in our points store which give you up to $20 back for every 100 points, equating to 40% rake-back. Our records indicate that you are now in the Gold category and to join the Palladium Elite level players need to accumulate 50,000.00 PartyPoints in a Quarter. I request you to please click on the links given below in regard to this: https://secure.partyaccount.com/pc/t...r&brandID=PART Y&LANG_ID=en http://www.palladiumlounge.com/ Please contact us incase you have any more issues in regard to this query and we will assist you further.
I thank you in advance for your patience and cooperation.

Regards,

***
Customer Service
Have Fun and Gamble Responsibly

Ok, that was totally besides the point : let's try again !

In response to the PartyPoints system. I'm afraid you missed the point I was making.
I'm fully aware that I need to upgrade to Palladium status in order to cash in on the 3000 $ bonus later on. That was not my problem.
My issue was that you advertise that bonus as if it is an equivalent of 30 % rakeback, while it's not even close.

Calculating the amount of hands I play, the amount of rake I pay for playing those hands and the amount of PartyPoints I have received for playing these hands, I come to this conclusion of yesterday's session

Hands played (me) : 5199
Rake paid : 540.79 $ (table average 496.17 $) according to PokerTracker 3
Points received : 550 PP

At this pace, in order to get to 20000 PP, I will have paid no less than 19636 $ in rake !!
Giving 3000 $ back is an equivalent of 15.2 % rakeback instead of the promised 30 %.
This gap is HUGE and points to false advertising in my opinion.
In order to get 30 % rakeback at least 5000 $ or maybe even more should be rewarded, so please do not tell me those bonusses equate to 30 %. NL100 SH is wààày undervalued in terms of PartyPoints per raked hand played if you ask, given that average rake is no less than 4.5PTBB/100 or 9$/100 hands and for some players even more !

This is false advertising... even if I move up to Palladium.

And again, their response, this time a bit more to the point, but still way off :

Dear Wim,

Thank you for contacting Customer Service.

[...]

Regarding your second query first I would like to say that I regret to hear that you feel this way about our site. I can see that your calculations are correct however I would like to note that in those 30% rake back we also include all the other benefits that we offer such as:

1. bonuses that are automatically given by our system
2. special promotions
3. Also have in mind that this bonus is for our palladium players which receive special bonus offers

This makes the whole loyalty program very flexible. I hope that this
explanation gives clarification of the matter.

If you have further questions or queries, please do not hesitate to
contact us.

We are here 24/7 to assist you

Thank you for choosing us as your online gaming site.

Best regards,

*** (new guy),
Customer Service.

Have Fun and Gamble Responsibly

This reply, albeit more concise and at least proof he actually read my complain, still is as incorrect as can be. My latest mail to them in reply to their response clarifying the subtle abomination to the truth.

Dear ***,

Regarding the rakeback controversy, I'm still not convinced. PartyPoker makes it look like the value of that bonus deal alone is worth 30 % in rakeback. I have further evidence contradicting your earlier statements btw.

First off, here's a snippet from a mail I received from an another customer service agent at PartyPoker :

"In regard to your second question, please note that we give bonuses worth the equivalent of up to 40% rake-back for the 'Palladium Lounge Elite players'. That is, these players can buy bonuses in our points store which give you up to $20 back for every 100 points, equating to 40% rake-back."

This message was in response to the initial complaint I sent and was sent by Anupama. It clearly states that $20 for 100 PP equates to 40% rakeback. From that I can deduct that PartyPoker presumes 50$ of rake to equate to 100PP, while for me, it equates to 51PP and for the average of my tables at NL100SH it equates to 55PP (being a bit higher because they play a bit tighter). That's error number 1.

Secondly, you state that this rakeback should be looked at as the maximum rakeback you can achieve if you use all promotions more than optimally, which needless to say is almost impossible as I'd need to clear the whole 20000 PP in 10 days during the Cash Machine promo to enjoy a real 25 % rakeback (the Cash Machine promo equaling to 10 % RB maximum if I play the exact amount of hands for 10 days straight and don't play on any other days) ... still below 30 % sir.

Thirdly, even if it were possible to achieve 30 % in total, this is NOT what PartyPoker advertizes ! How do I know ?
If I take a look at the bonuses offered to Palladium players, I see the 3000$ bonus for 20k PP being advertized as 30 % and the 1200$ bonus for 10k PP being advertized as 24 %. The difference in money for both promotions if 20000 PP were earned according to the site equals to 600 $ and to 6 % in RB. They both have exact the same money/PP to rakeback percentage ration and therefore one can conclude that this advertized rakeback percentage only applies to the cash bonus purchase with PartyPoints, as other additional promotions offer no discrimination in terms of money received per paid $ of rake. So where does the difference in advertized rakeback come from ? Only from the Bonus purchase itself and nothing more.

Need more ?
I'm absolutely sure that if you carefully read and examine this, you agree with me.
But I'm assuming you can't say this "on the record", but "off the record" I'm right.
If no satisfying answer is given, I will spread this message and won't drop it this easily.
This is a case of horrendous misleading advertizing and is outlawed by EU law, of which Gibraltar is a member.

I'm sorry, but I'm truly appalled, maybe even more so by continuous denial on your side of this offense.

---

Maybe I'm taking this thing a bit too far, but I feel it's my ethical and moral duty to report this violation of consumer trust to someone.
This is a continuous denial of misleading information, even when I clearly point out it is incorrect. Maybe for some limits, those numbers are more correct, but NLSH players are having their ball broken, scorched and eaten while the majority is oblivious to this.

Am I right this is a violation of EU law ? I had a course in European politics and juridicial systems at university and from what I can recall, what they are doing is unlawful...

Looks like it can be as little as 15-16% if you play 100NL 6max thats almost half what Partypoker advertising.

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11-03-2009 , 12:01 PM

Lessu

Thailand Guru

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,069

the exact number depends on your playing style

just wait a couple of months until they release the "fairer partypoints distribution bs"

party has been going to better direction in the last year so i am confident they will make it right

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11-03-2009 , 12:31 PM

jukofyork

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 11,749

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lessu

just wait a couple of months until they release the "fairer partypoints distribution bs"

party has been going to better direction in the last year so i am confident they will make it right

Yeah, PartyRep has already said in the other post that they are looking into it (and Party have actually been very good at listening to us and fixing stuff recently so I think they will do something, even if it takes them a while to roll it out).

FWIW: SNG players get exactly 30% effective RB as a Palladium VIP and if you add to that the other stuff they give through promotions (and bonuses earlier in the year); you can average about 40% effective RB their now (eg: 52% all this month for me thanks to the Gladiator promotion plus whatever I can make from the leaderboards).

Juk

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11-03-2009 , 12:41 PM

Symbolic

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,280

I looked at my last 82k hands of 100NL 6max on Party and I had paid $6,245 in rake, which is 3.81ptBB/100, much less what you say you got in your sample. Anyway that equates to 23.6% rakeback if you you buy the $3k bonus, which when you consider the extra money you get from promotions etc, seems the tally up fine with the 30% claim. If you're playing 200NL, the figure is a fair bit higher, so all appears ok to me.

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08-31-2010 , 04:26 PM

#10

Scotty_12

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,359

Any idea if things were ever changed?

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09-01-2010 , 01:17 AM

#11

Lessu

Thailand Guru

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,069

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scotty_12

Any idea if things were ever changed?

yes nowadays you get 2 partypoints for each $1 in rake in all the games so the system is fair and if you are palladium for example ($4.5k rake within 3 months) you can buy $3k bonus for 20k points ($10k in rake) and that equals 30% rakeback

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