OK, but the server location isn't necessarily the same as the legal home of the company or persons behind it.

I'm still baffled why people find PTR so offensive.

There are some people who think the games should be fair, for all players.

I think they actually run a copy of the poker client and let it observe the max number of tables, and do multiple instances of this on multiple virtual machines. Observers do not have to log in so they can run multiple copies from one IP number. Then they have their own software that grabs the observed data from the running client in memory, and no encryption is broken.

The main point is that they are just observing tables just like a human can do, not anything devious. It's also worth noting that poker sites could easily build in trivial mechanisms that prevent automated observing of many tables, but they don't.

How is PTR unfair? Anybody in the world can go to the site.

I was thinking about this allot yesterday while I was playing.
Here is my answer.

I use PT3, I expect most players use an equivalent. So when I sit down and see I have 300 hands on a player I expect that they have 300 hands on me. and he/she expects that I expect etc etc.

Now when I sit down and I have 0 hands on a player I expect them to be the same, I have to play my normal nitty tag game until they get the idea before I can start getting sneaky.

If they have PTR they immediately know my normal game, but I do not know that they know. Thats the bit that is unfair.

I have no objection to someone using PTR (I believe it is of dubious use anyway) provided that I KNOW they are using it and can adjust my game accordingly.

Everyone here is grasping at the legality only because of the common (correct or not) idea that PTR is killing the games. Almost everywhere smoking pot is illegal, but there's no million page thread about all the reasons why we should come to some sort of common agreement to do all we can to force the authorities to prosecute and end pot smoking forever. The vast majority here probably download music and movies, but no one cares to debate the legality because people only get on their high horse about legal issues that they believe affect them negatively.

T&C of an online poker site are not even close to being "law". It's a bunch of legalese a gaming provider wrote up on advice of their lawyers that can be summarized in all instances to: our decision is final and your money is forfeit if you do something we don't like.

Information wants to be free. The technical barrier to mining tons of hands has clearly been broken now, as soon as PTR is shut down another provider will do the same. People in the tech industries applaud when HD encryption is cracked, because openness fosters innovation and development. IP is a dying business model. Your hands played on a public poker table are not owned by you.

Everyone is just pathetically scared about hiding losing players' own statistics from them. Don't use the supposed legality as some sort of crutch to prevent you from adapting to the information age and improving your game. Of course, everyone wants fish in the game, sure, but this sense of entitlement to an endless stream of money is ridiculous.

I bet you guys were all there, burning the Gutenberg machine...

Well said.

The stats are of limited use anyway.

I do object to the total $ won/lost figure being made public, that just feels like it should be illegal.

I also object to pokerstars making use of PTR against the T&C but then doing very little to stop the data mining.

You have misunderstood the topic of this thread. I don't care about people thinking and arguing if PTR is good or bad for the games; there are tons of thread discussing about it.

My objective with this Thread is to merely get information and opinions about the legality of the business PTR is doing. Therefore I encourage everyone to write here if they have additional information about the company behind PTR and useful information about the legal aspects of their activities.

At the same time I discourage people to write here their opinions about the fact that PTR is good or bad.

I totally agree with you. There are many stuff in the T&C which are maybe even against the law. But I still tend to think that certain condition can be enforced by law. Especially if you accept to not use prohibited software during the game, as well as were you declare that the data and information (i.e. HH) you get from the server are for your personal use only. There are several legal studies considering the breach of these conditions as fraud.

I totally disagree here. So, just as example, you are at the same time legitimating bots usage as well? Since "the technical barrier to using them has clearly been broken now, and as soon as a team of bots is shut down, a new team will appear"... so, are you stating that also bots is perfectly fine for you? Are you stating that once someone find a way to break into a credit card company database it's fine to make all the info public?

As said before, this is not the topic of this Thread. Pathetically or now, is just your personal judgement which does not add any particolar useful information in this topic. Stay focused.

Thanks for the info.

Are you able to explain why if you use online geolocation services via IP you have conflicting results?

Looking for the IP address of the ptr website I found these two different results:

United States
Colorado
Littleton (80124)

or

United States
Delaware
Wilmington (19808)

But the majority of results gives the Delaware one.

So, for some reason, most of the online IP addresses database "think" that the ptr website IP address is in Delaware...

I think for a lot of people this might be the case, simply because they don't want public information out there in terms of how much money they have lost in the course of playing online poker.

On the other hand, if somebody is profitable and plays poker for a living the publication of one's income level in a freely available public forum can be viewed by that person as an invasion of privacy.

I also see a difference between checking out the web-site and buying hand histories, though. Getting a general overview of a player's game is no big deal, it would be the same as asking your friend about the level of play or tendencies of a new guy who showed up at a home game.

To run simulations of that player's hands based on information your friend recording would be a little much in my opinion. Spirit of the game.

Then the question is laughable. If you don't like it then play on a site that doesn't allow public observation of your play, or that allows you to change screen names frequently. As long public observers are allowed, the results can be summarized and distributed by anyone, in any jurisdiction in the world. This happens in every kind of sporting contest you can name. Moving it to a virtual online venue doesn't give you any increased expectation of privacy, less in fact. You accept that when you choose to play at all.

The Cake network, for one, allows a weekly change of screen name, and so none of the tracking sites cover them. Play there if you want your results to be private. The market always provides options, and that's far preferable to the law doing it.

Fair enough. I'm clearly ambivalent about it's PTR existence, but I was trying to make a real point regarding legality. While you say you want to delve into the actual legal issues here, I think it's worthwhile as an exercise at the start to analyse the reasons compelling people to take this path. As stated, I imagine most of those reasons pretty spurious.

People probably thought I was trolling as I've mentioned this in other threads, but yes bot-making is a legitimate computer science. It should be made open, with new poker sites to only cater for bots and their budding game-theory geek owners. Have bot only, centaur, and human only networks just like chess does.

Derailing, but yeah just wanted to respond, thanks for accommodating a dissenting view, good for 2p2.

Back on track, ignore derail...

Do you use PTR/HEM?

You still don't get the topic.

I don't even want to say if I like it or not, I'm questioning the legality of business, which is a fair question and I'm not offending anyone.

You are right. I'm just afraid talking about the reason, because you will find tons of people against, tons of people in favour, tons of people laughing at you and thinking you are stupid, other people shooting out of topic stuff. Moreover, online there are many pages where you can find these opinions and I did not mean to open again the same discussion.

I'm mostly interested about the legal aspect, merely from a law technical point of view. I'm not trying to convince people if PTR is good or bad, I'm sure many think it's good and many think it's bad.

Once and if we understand and if we will be convinced that it's not legal and we find more info about the company and the people behind, I'll be willing to find a way to sue them. I'm motivated and I have the resources to do it.

:-)

Sorry, I did not mean to be rude - I appreciaty your irony!

You're going to sue them?

What part EXACTLY of PTR do you think it illegal?

They don't publish this private information. They publish information about a user name which is theoretically an anonymous representation of a real person.

I completely understand why they would want to remain hidden when there is so much hate revolving around them for no apparent reason.

This is normal.

Not sure if this is in breach if iCANN, got a reference? Even if it is, it's such a minor and petty dispute it really doesn't matter. Anonymous/invalid/outdated domain information is the norm for millions of sites.

This is a good question, and it's the reason why this thread has been opened. So far I have no certainties, but I have several doubts. I'll try to summarize:

1) They are breaking for sure the T&C of the pokersites. I know this does not mean automatically being illegal, but the T&C are a civil contract which you accept.

2) They seems to be violating the intellectual properties (if they built their own client for datamining, then they have hacked/decompiled/analyzed the original poker client or the SSL communication protocol)

3) They are selling stuff they don't have the right to (they are selling HH, which, by contract, are for personal use only)

4) They might be violating the privacy of the players when they publish stats, profit/loss histories, #hands played. The screenname is apparently anonymous, but in fact often is linked to a person, or it gives the public a way to link. I'm not sure here, but it's worth trying to understand.

You can't say "for no apparent reason". You can say that in your opinion there is no problem in what they are doing, but you can't really say that they are 100% clean. They are, at least, operating in the grey area. Moreover, the decision of being hidden did not come after they saw people "revolving around them", the decision was done since the very beginning - therefore they perfectly knew that they can't be really safe in the public.

Maybe it's the norm, but it's agains the ICANN rules and if someone fill a complain to ICANN, they will be forced to update them, otherwise ICANN might decide to cancel the domain.

To fill a complain: http://wdprs.internic.net/

Obviously once the complain is sent, PTR will probably ask to someone to put their name instead... Anyway, the admin contact of a domain must be a person who has legal power to sign any kind of act on behalf of the company owning the domain.

You took one sentence of my response out of context, when the response was exactly about your topic of legality.

Ok, apologies for that - you are right.

Let's take your full response:

I disagree on this for the following reason: if you go watching an official NBA match, you are not allowed to record the match and put it online for sale. If you see a tennis match, you can't make a DVD of your amatorial record, and sell it. You probably can keep it for your personal use (watch it at home, watch it with friends, whatever).

While what PTR is doing is: watching and selling without the right to sell. I'm pretty sure that if PTR would be selling unauthorized NBA videos, they would be brought to a tribunal instantly.

Maybe, and I'm saying MAYBE, if PTR would publish stats and profit/loss history without any charge (i.e. for free), then it might be allowed by the law... not sure about it.

I never said that "I want my results to be private" and it's not the topic of this thread. I'm investigating the legality of the PTR business.

In fact a screen name frequent change would make PTR much less interesting and would defeat the datamining problems. Obviously the problem in this case is that, I guess, many people would not like it.

Party Poker also allows a quite frequent screen name change, depending on how long you are playing there, you are allowed to change screen name every 30/60/90 or more days. If the major servers would also introduce this, then everything would be back in order in my opinion, because WHO wants to stay private, will change his/her screenname frequently and who does not care, will stay indefinitely with his/her screenname.

What do you think spadebidder?

I think all sites should do one or both of two things if the marketplace in fact considers this a big problem. One, allow periodic screenname changes. Some sites do this now. The other possibility, and the better one imo, is to take steps to thwart mass automated observation of tables. This is trivial to do yet no one has taken these steps. You can easily limit observed tables to say, 4 per IP number, and use captcha in strategic places to confirm a human instead of tracking bot, and other easy steps. I can only surmise that the big sites consider the demand for these stat services to be bigger than the objections to them among their customer base. Otherwise they would respond to the market.

With your explanation, I do see part of your reasoning questioning the propriety of what PTR and others do, but legality is quite a different matter in the online environment. If the information is freely observable by design and the sites aren't trying to prevent it, then I don't think that argument stands up. It isn't like a trademarked and copyrighted franchise in professional sports like the comparison you made. They took affirmative steps to protect their brand and content and gameplay. Poker sites have not. As you point out too, if PTR or other sites limited themselves to publishing summarized information instead of complete play histories, then this wouldn't even be an open question at all.

Isn't that exactly the case? They only charge for the in-depth analysis, HUD, and other extras. All of the raw data is free to the world.

That's a bad example, because I can go to an NBA match with a pen and paper and record the stats and publish them. IE, the final score, the number of fouls etc etc.

Yes - But you can't sell the VIDEO of the match (i.e. the HH).