Yes, rake should be lowered across the board i agree. No amount of adjusting is going to make these games beatable at this rake with these 3 min blinds if they have 8+ competent regs per game.

noooooooooooo the rake in don's IS Beatable. i have been hovering around 60 percent itm for the last 1 1/2 yrs thru 30,000 games at the non turbo level. yes, it is def beatable. that's how beatable that format is once u got the feel for it (obv not everyone can grasp it). Even with an 8 percent rake i was taking in 1000,s in profit per month not inc vpp cash.

Ya gotta understand, the decisions a good multi-tabling don player make become sub-conscious. They become like clockwork to the point of feeling like u own the format. In no other format can u comfortably multi 35 tables as i did. No other sng format has as little streakiness as dons do. (ie any good don players chart...they are as steady as u can get).

Maybe stars is on it's way out and they want to maximize profits for their last hurrah. Putting out a crappy format is not something they would care about rather gaining as much profit in as short a time possible (ie putting out sngs with 6 min levels at a 6 percent rake). I used to love stars (till about a week ago) Now, all i have is a bitter taste in my mouth from them. This was handled horribly..no warning. Doesnt matter though, cause here in the US they will never get licensed anyway. All the licensing will be given to the US gaming corporations (ie harrah's etc). Once legislation goes thru stars is to the US what dons were to Stars...GONE, lol.

And, as has been iterated to you multiple times so far, no other format is as easy to cheat in or as rewarding of said cheating.

What do you not understand about that? I get that you and others loved the format and were profitable at it. So was I. That is a non sequitur.

The same way Stars waited to tell ppl about a decision they made last summer (dons being taken off), they will wait till the last minute to send out those mass emails to real money players how they feel they must exit the market. They are sooooooooo done when online poker begins being regulated state by state (started happening lately..Florida, NJ, Cali, etc). The corporations will not even want their software platform (like how in other euro conutries they sold their format (pokerstars.it). American Corps. will come up with their own ugly interface and lobby themes. I doubt stars will be able to be half the corp they are now by relying on the UK and a few other European countries for player traffic. This thing with the dons is just the beginning. I have a feeling there will be more negative news from this site. Ya know what though, get it regulated here. As much as I hate the American mega-size greedy gaming corps, at least i know the cards dealt out will be certified by the gaming control baord to be random cause ya know what stars....i really really wonder sometimes...on stars, the dominating hand seems to really be the one dominated by the one it's supposed to dominate. happens a little too much ofr me not to have wondered. I still won overall, but those true odds are totally skewed by what sometimes seems to be outright manipualtion based on the players involved.

Even ignoring Stars getting rid of the DoNs, this just sounds like a recipe for game-death...

Juk

If you're smart enough to beat DoNs then you were smart enough to see the writing on the wall after the wenzhou scandal and also when the F/50 format came out.

Im done with this thread for good. I've said my piece. Bye pokerstars. It's been a great run. I'll be cashing out now so u can mail me my check. I'll be depositing on tilt since their cash games have 27% rakeback and urs don't.

I was in denail, lol. Riz, when I got that survey in late summer...i sorta realized it BUT i thought when they first intro'd the 50/50s and left the dons that they were doing a final test to see which was being frequented more. I played my first 50/50 about 6 weeks ago and right away i realized how poor the game is and immediately stopped even wanting to even try them on any multi-game level. I am smart but was in denial. I've already decided to move my money onto tilt and start multi'ing lower stakes fr games. The only good thing that came out of playing dons so long then being cut off from them, is that it greatly helped my 9 man table skills. I've found my fr cash game has gotten multitudes better. I used to be a heads up sng player (winning one) and adjusting to dons was at first tricky but then i figured em out and developed a ton of patience from playing them.

I would recommend anyone who was a don grinder to switch to full ring side games (ur don feel for hand selection will transfer over nicely). If u are a US player i would not even think of remaining on stars for their tard 50/50's. bring ur roll to tilt cause stars is not the good site for US ring players. Tilt has a rakeback AND a fpp point rewards program. Stars deserves us to punish them for this "bad read" lol. I will, however, be monitoring lobby traffic on the other US don sites and if i see they gained more players due to stars turning them away. If traffic is decent, could work for me. Otherwise, it's cash games on tilt for me.

No way..

DoNs were one of the easiest formats in which to reduce a majority of actions to fully automatic / subconscious or whatever you want to call it, imo primarily due to the almost complete removal of calling ranges - but to think there aren't players who can megatable in almost full autopilot at almost any holdem variant is ridiculous.

Alright guy we all get it. Not trying to be a douchebag, but your last 5-10 posts only come across as a scorned lover, not as rational arguments against what Stars did.

Im booking bets that this time next year 50/50s will have already been gone. Oh, actually, im also taking bets that pokerstars will be history in the US this time next year.

May I ask what is wrong with good old 50/30/20 9-man SNGs?

I would think any DoN player would be best to try changing to them rather than cash games?

Juk

I love poker and i have been scorned = scorned lover. Im ok with ur analogy.

What's with all these love analogies: Valentine's Day was yesterday!

Juk

If someone makes the correct play, it really doesn't matter whether they are doing it for the right reasons. It's when they do something perverse that you should be concerned. And there is way more opportunity for that in a DON.

The rake in DONs is beatable. I have very little experience at the 100 dollar buy in, but I have plenty of experience at the 5 - 50 dollar buy ins and I think they're easily beatable. Now, are all games beatable for a 5% ROI? Maybe not. But they're beatable.

Now come on seanysean has demonstrated that it easier and you are far more likely to see collusion in cash games.

Supernova on stars is >27% rb. Also if you get it then the following year its like near 40% rb.

Fifty50 blind structure speed compared to DoNs
The structure for Turbo Fifty50s is not similar to a hyper-turbo. While the blinds are 3 minutes per level, the blind increases per level are smaller than the blind increases in other tournaments. The 'speed' of the Fifty50 blind structure is quite similar to the 'speed' of the Double or Nothing blind structure.

Here is an extreme example of why length of levels is not a complete indicator of speed:

Tournament A has 5 minute levels and 1500 starting chips
Level 1: 100/200
Level 2: 200/400
Level 3: 400/800

Tournament B has 3 minute levels and 1500 starting chips
Level 1: 10/20
Level 2: 15/30
Level 3: 20/40
Level 4: 25/50
Level 5: 30/60

While tournament B has shorter levels, it has the slower structure as the blinds start lower and the levels increase far more gradually.

A more complete way to compare blind structures is to evaluate the blinds and antes after X minutes of play, for each value of X. For example, we can compare the blinds and antes in tournament A after 5 minutes to the blinds and antes in tournament B after 5 minutes of play.

Here is a comparison of the blinds and antes of the Turbo DoN structure vs. the Turbo Fifty50 structure:



The Fifty50 structure is a little bit faster but the difference is not nearly comparable to the difference between a turbo and a hyper turbo. The major important differences in the structure are in the 25th minute and during the 28th minute and beyond. Many Fifty50s do not even make it to the 28th minute. Many Fifty50s end in the 22nd, 23rd, 24th, 26th, and 27th minutes when the blinds are the same as what they would be in the current DoN structure and the ante is only very slightly (5 chips) higher.


The blind structure was chosen for a reason
PokerStars consulted with many high volume Sit & Go players prior to setting the structure for Fifty50s. Two different structures were trialed by players recruited from 2+2 and by Team Online members. The structure chosen was the clear preference of the participants.

When discussing Sit & Go blind structures, players commonly mentioned that stalling near blind raises was becoming more common. The change to this structure is intended to reduce the impact of stalling to time blind increases as each blind increase is a smaller amount.


Regardless of the reason, Fifty50s are finishing faster than DoNs
While the changed structure is not the main cause of the Fifty50s ending faster than Double or Nothings, the fact remains that the Fifty50s are finishing more quickly on average than Double or Nothings did. The main cause of this difference is likely the differing play styles utilized in the two tournaments due to the different payout structure.

Players have made good points about the average duration of the Fifty50s being shorter than the average DoN of the same game speed and buy-in. While the feedback here is valued, it's important that PokerStars take the time to review the thoughts of an unbiased sample of players prior to considering structure changes.

Thanks for taking the time to express your thoughts on the Fifty50 structure.

Steve, will the rake be lowered? I love the F50s but they will not assume the mantle of DONs unless the rake is lowered to the same level as DONs.

Why does stars need us to tell them that a shorter game with higher rake isn't right?

Steve, you still didn't explain why we're paying a higher rake for a game with a faster blind structure that take less time to complete...

Steve, I understand it is your job to defend 50/50's (i hope ur wise enough to believe otherwise deep down inside) but the problem is that in this particular case you are defending a format that will be laughed about in several weeks once long term result samplings of regulars prove to be pitiful. These aren't gonna fill the double or nothing void. Steve, please look at one of my earlier posts where i give the example about cashing 60 percent of the time in these with an avg finishing stack of 2121 yet still breaking even. This brand of of sit and go is laughable. There are good ideas and bad ideas. This is a bad one. It's a blunder by pokerstars. Does Stars honestly believe these will provide the same long term profits they enjoyed with don's???