And when the rules change I'll adjust. I've said that I'll support what analysis of the survey of casual players concludes. But I don't think such drastic changes should be made 1/3 of the way through Stars' biggest promotion.

If Stars were to change the games so drastically in April I think they need to do something to compensate any shortstacker on pace for SNE. I don't currently have any ideas for how to equitably do this though.

Haven't read the thread, but just wanna say that I am a fullstacker and have already made the move to FTP. Games are much better at ftp but I would prob move back to stars if they switch the min buy in simply because stars vip system>>> ftps.

sorry but i laughed really hard at this notion

Heh. Stars has always been pretty good about being fair to their players so I imagine they'll do something for the shortstacked grinders should they be adversely affected by Stars' decision.

FWIW I'm not even close to on pace for SNE. In fact if I don't put in some volume before the end of the month I won't even be Supernova anymore.

This is patently untrue. Your second argument is incredibly potent, as to why stars might not care about the long term. But the first argument is incredibly wrong. Shortstacks will extract equity out of fish in an "unfair manner," and thats bad.

To begin this debate, we have to figure out why fish deposit:

a. degeneracy
b. false sense of winning
c. enjoyment of the game
d. attempt to get better.

Feel free to add any points, it wont matter. A) Degenerates will play no matter what. These degenerate fish are more likely to play on a site that they have an actual chance of winning stacks on. You can debate this, I'll even concede some may be too degen to move. This represents some population of poker fish, assign a percentage as you wish. They still don't like shortstacks. B)Fish do not get a false sense of winning from shortstacks. Fish who play for this reason will leave, lower amounts of 50 buyin hot streaks since they can only double up for 20bb will cause them to redeposit less and less. C)Fish who enjoy the game either dont care about shortstacking, or hate shortstackers. Either way, shortstacking doesn't improve their enjoyment of the game, discount this off as more likely to make the fish leave. D)Fish who try to get better are at this moment, and some in this thread, complaining about shortstackers. Fish who want to get better do not play to optimize preflop shoving ranges, they like picking off bluffs, etc, TV stuff.

In general, you are likely to lose some fish with a sustained shortstack supported strategy while an alternative shortstack free arena is being provided. You will also have a slowly increasing population of shortstacks who find the low effort --> reward ratio appealing and don't mind the cap on the reward. This presents a bad situation for our pyramid as the base fish will dry up. They won't disappear. But all the exogenous factors such as the bad marketing will add up to slowly decrease their numbers who redeposit to FTP instead. Think recessions, people will still have jobs. But theres also going to be a lot less people with jobs.

Stars,

Just make the damn changes already. These endless arguments between shortstackers vs everyone else are flat out boring and repetitive.

If you want a case of reference see the Full Tilt threads in the last four months. Same arguments plus a bizzilion arguments by the shortstackers about how bad the games would suffer without them and how much business FTP would lose. All the cases have been proven WRONG easily as the games at FTP are just as plentiful and way way better now. Nobody misses them one iota. There are still some that remain but they can't ruin the games anymore with a 35bb stack. It's actually enjoyable to watch them try to employ their strategy now.

another point is that stars was prett clever to let FT do the first step...

there is def. a bunch of ratholers who moved lately to Stars...

if you do the changes, these ratholers cannot move nowhere bc they r already caught in the VIP System... Euro ratholers could switch to iPoker but they will not do this move bc iPoker is dead a long time BC of too many ratholers...


so Stars, if you do the changes ur business will not be hurt at all. The only thing which is happening is, that alot of fullstacks which moved from Stars to FT lately will move back...



THIS is btw from Everest Poker - I LIKE
______
Thank you for your inquiry.

After escalating your concerns about the minimum buy-in at cash game to
our development team manager, I have the following feedback for you:

The buy-in issue has been a recent topic of discussion. We will be
raising the minimum buy-in at all of our ring game tables in the near
future, except for micro-stakes. We are currently conducting
competitive research to determine the appropriate minimum.

Should you have any concerns or questions, please do not hesitate to
contact us. We are happy to assist you.

Kind regards,

Jerry
Customer Care Team








SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOON

hmmmmmmmmmmm this keeps getting better and better lol

This is so true. I don't talk **** anymore because I'm so used to it but what I hear very frequently from casual players is "OMG you only have 1 move and that's all in!!1" and "WTF he just took my money and left"

It may have been referred to differently, but you applied to be a part of it on a thread in this forum IIRC.

Well done

Hi SteveD!

Compensation? Stars should compensate the fullstacks for how much you guys ruined the games.

It's so funny to hear shortstackers complain how unfair this is. Most of them arn't educated enough to even understand that this whole scenario happened 2 years ago and they lost... and they will lose once again....

Dear Fish,

Do you enjoy playing more with players of 100bb stacks that are skilled generally but stay at the table or 20bb stacks of shove poker that leave once they double up?

Pokerstars

Ye, I really wonder..

ahahahaha what

how long would it take anyone to do the math to figure out how to beat the game playing with a 5bb stack?

now how long would it take anyone to do the math for a 10bb stack? now 20bb?

if im reading what ive quoted correctly, youre saying it's harder to be a winner shortstacking than fullstacking

ahahahahahahahaha

Seriously you don't understand why minimum buyins were established????

Initially many online poker sites implemented a 10bb rule in order to avoid players who simply shoved all in (i.e. buying in for 3 bbs would mean they would never have to open raise and then fold). However around the same time SAGE became well known most poker operators began to rethink the 10bb rule. It became fairly obv that 10bb players could exploit the tables nearly as much as a 3bb player. So the 20bb rule was made and was thought that players could not exploit it (just like they originally thought with the 10bb rule).

The simple fact is that due to effective stacks sizes the smallest stack at the table will always have an advantage (and the biggest stack will be at a disadvantage). This is because the smallest stack knows exactly how deep he is playing whereas the largest stacks effective size is determined by his opponent (therefore he cannot properly formulate an opening range). Now for practical reasons you can't force players to play with identical stack sizes but you can implement rules that stop players from trying to exploit such an advantage.

fact is that the games on stars are becoming more and more unplayable.

i appreciate the thoughts and the effort you put into it, but if things are not being changed in the very close future you finally managed to become the site with the best support and service, the best software and the worst games out there.
and even though it would hurt a lot of us to leave the site, there´d be just no option.

i shortstack and do not want the changes. But changing it mid year is just a joke. Just like they tried to change the vpps last year mid year.

They need to wait to make any drastic changes until Jan 1st next year. Just like they did with the VIP changes (that were for the worse for ANY players)

bro it's not the middle of the year

LOL how generous of you.

There's two blatant issues here that I don't think people are explicitly stating:

1) The VAST MAJORITY of shortstackers immediately leave after doubling up. Maybe the ones posting in here are the rare exception (which I don't think they are as evidenced by your bolded statement, for one), but I don't think you can logically argue that this is in the spirit and fairness of the game. How would you feel if every time you lost an AIPF the villain left right afterwards EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU LOST? I agree with the argument that shortstacking is a strategy in itself and should not be blatantly penalized just because it might be annoying. But the strategy relies on leaving straight after winning any hand and that is wrong, plain and simple. If all shortstackers did not leave straight after doubling I honestly would have no problem with shortstackers. I've even suggested the idea of having tables having a minimum time limit for players to stay where if they left early they would be blinded out until the limit is up.

2) People in here are constantly arguing about what should be the "standard" or "unmarked" table in terms of stacksize. Right now, the 20 BB tables are the "standard unmarked" tables and the 50 BB tables are the "abnormal marked" tables. The recreational players are much more likely to go to what the "standard" table is going to be on the site. The shortstackers here are arguing that the 20 BB tables have always been the "standard" and so it would be unfair to change that. Well, based on my first point here shortstacking is just not a fair thing to do, so why should it be rewarded with being allowed on "standard" tables where more recreational players are going to be?

He has a point^. In fact, some might say right now is more like the beginning of the year.

Im not a shortstacker but why dont you just go play on the 50bb min tables on stars. Problem solved.
Theres a crap load of 50 bb min tables going on right now for NLH. No shorties you get to play 3 street poker . If all deepstack players including myself move to the 50bb min tables guess what you wont ever have to worry about playing with shortstackers again they will all just be playing with eachother. .

[ ] Understands The Problem

[ ] Solved The Problem

[x] Either A Shortstacker Or Not Too Bright

why it take so long for stars to make decision? is it another strategical move from their part to make shorties play as much as they can in this month and a half till decision is made? to make them rathole as many VPP's as they can before changes are made, so they would have time to make new charts etc?

it would be nice to see same structure as FTP has: 35bb min tables (standard tables), 20-40bb (shallow/cap), 100bb min (deep tables).

Theres tons of 50bb in games going on right now. Why am i not bright?
So you think those 50bb games are to tough to beat?