but it was posted by a shortstacker which makes if even better.

We do not know EXACTLY what they want, but we can use a little logic and come up with some educated guesses. Shortstackers definitely make the game less fun for me. Fact remains that losing players who make deposits will be the end of online poker, shortstack ratholers will only speed up this process by taking the fun out of the game.

Actually what I want is an exploitable aspect of PokerStars table structure to be closed to protect the long time sustainability of the games.

I would support the rathole time being moved to 24 hours as a solution as well. Although I believe this would increase multi-accounting drastically.

This argument is irrelevant. We all need casual players whether they are playing 50bb tables or 20bb tables. These are the only players that matter, we need to keep the casual players happy.

bah ratholing is not a problem and everyone knows it. shortstacking is sort of an issue because it makes the games one dimensional.

seriously, they can move to 35 big blinds short stackers can still beat the games it makes their decisions a bit more interesting. play will be slightly less robotic and all will be fine.

i shortstack and i think moving to 35 bbs is not a bad thing for long term game integrity and ill still beat the games.

Would you mind telling us your name? Also, no not everybody knows it. Ratholing IS a problem

Your logic was pretty biased. It completely ignores that shortstackers force fullstacks to play tighter causing the fish to lose his money slower. And they raise smaller allowing the fish to see more flops cheaply etc. The fact is we won't know what casual players want until we see the results of the survey Stars has sent out.

Maybe if you stayed at the table after doubling up you would see the complaining in the chat box.

Why exactly do FS'ers raise smaller amounts and play more tight while shortstackers are around? Are you admitting SS'ers have an unfair edge?

Shortstacking is indeed going to slowly wrap it's long snakelike coil around stars games. Theres no stopping it, it's simply superior in terms of the effort --> return. It's also an enormous drag on Pokerstars' marketing campaign, and while in the short run will bring in volume in the long run will choke out the site. It's especially prevalent in MSNL, and the games there are bad enough as it is. Without ratholing the games there would be drastically better, maybe even tolerable. With 35 bb min FTP wouldn't look like a great alternative. Frankly if they don't change, even long time loyal regs will either decide to shortstack after starting to have lower winrates with their edges being choked out, or they will move.

It's economics for the bigstacks. You won't see a sudden 1 day disappearance, but as the games today even without shortstacks are worse than the games in 2004, so will the games of 2011 if Stars does nothing. Frankly, supernova, optimism, and brand loyalty keep me on the site for the interim. But if things continue the opportunity cost of not moving is going to outweigh the laziness.

The people arguing even the idea that shortstacks aren't making the games less attractive are hilarious. Their argument doesn't even merit rebuttal. While Stars certainly has the perogative to choose the short term wallet over long term image, if they do nothing the only choice players who don't want to play against shortstacks have is to move.

did party change their min buyin as well?

Even in a shortstacking thread it is rare to see so much fail in one post.

Well done!

A couple things:

1) Long time sustainability is a function of the amount of money coming into the games vs the amount coming out. It would be hard to argue that shortstacking adversely affects this as they serve to protect fish in many situations and it is much less effective exploiting fish as a shortstacker than as a fullstacker. If shortstackers disappear, fullstack winrates go up but the total amount of money coming out of the games remains about the same. Except now there are fewer seats filled.

2) Now this means that for shortstacks to have a negative impact on the long term health of the games they need to be scaring off losing players from depositing.

So Stars' interests may not line up with yours since fewer seats filled means less rake for them. Additionally long term sustainability may not be their goal because of legislative issues.

SSers, I'm pretty sure you are done because casual players are going to say one of two things:

1.) I don't care about nitty ratholing preflop shoving bastards, or
2.) I hate nitty ratholing preflop shoving bastards.

Unless #2 is really, really low (which I doubt) it's GAME OVER.

Thanks to give us a date.

I probably have played 99.95% of my online hands on PS, I like a lot this site, but if nothing change mid-April, I will leave Stars.

The games are so terrible right now, with all the SSers !

This is another bad argument. Pro Shortstacks exist because they are at least beating the rake, or are at least not losing enough to still come out ahead with bonuses. This means that they are taking money off the fish. Any influx of winning players that learn to shortstack in a very short amount of time will cause the fish to go broke in a SHORTER amount of time. The fact is that there are not that many winning fullstack players, and they pail in comparison to the number of winning shortstack players as of today. The more winners at a table the quicker a losing player will lose. So how are you gonna tell me that Pro Shortstacks are helping the fish keep their money?

You haven't been reading all my posts. I frequently do stay at tables after doubling up if a fish is present. I'm also there when other shortstackers leave the table. I just simply don't see much complaining from fish.

Well I was speaking of SSers raise sizes, but yes fullstacks tend to raise smaller with shortstacks around as well. The edge SSers have is perfectly fair. The rules allow for it and nobody forces you to buy in with 100bb.

cliffs: ss'ers that are adamantly against Pokerstars making changes to the current format clearly understand the edge they have sitting between 100bb stacks and never want to give it up

100bb regs that want Pokerstars to make these changes just want to be able to have more games to choose from that don't require checking the lobby to see if 3+ ss'ers are sitting at a table.

Thanks for the update. Please raise the minimum buyin.

It's about a wash. Yes more winning players causes a fish to lose his money faster. But better winning players also does this. And shortstackers prevent winning fullstackers from maximally exploiting the fish.

In other words:

SSers and FSers both want to make as much money as they can.

of course but i really think it should be up to the rec player to decide

And I agree. And since Stars is attempting to find this out with their survey there's not much sense in arguing amongst ourselves.

please stars, your games are becoming overrun with shortstackers, do something ASAP its really very hard to continue playing on your site

You keep talking about the rules, well there is going to be new rules. These rules will make everyone play on an even playing field, taking away the advantage you gained by exploiting a flaw in the old rules, so take your own advice and accept it.