kevstreet you still havent answered why you had 15k online when your average buyin is only $18. if you had kept a 200 buyin roll on stars then you wouldve only lost 3600. so why did you have your entire nest egg in such an insecure location?

FWIW I did answer this question earlier but I'll answer it again.

1.) The US gov freezing funds had me a little concerned. When the dust had settled from that and PS checks were processing again I did make a withdrawal early in July and i was planning to make more withdrawals in the near future.

2.) I'm a bankroll nit. Downswings sometimes affect my play so I liked to know that no matter how bad I ran my roll was never in danger (the irony).

3.) I was starting to take more shots at the $38s and $60s.

4.) I trusted the poker site too much.

Obviously I made a mistake, my wife asked me that same question quite a few times since this has happened. As hard as I try not to look in hindsight I can't. I planned to withdraw, I planned to buy the token, etc. etc. Trust me, it's haunting me that I didn't get my money out sooner. It is a mistake that I will live with for the rest of my life.

- Kev

This is pretty much exactly my story too. Well except that I don't play sng's and I lack a wife.

I've got nothing but respect for the hsnl players -- theyre cartainly vanguard thinkers. But no, they havent worked hard to get where they are, at least not compared to 99% of the population. Theyve gotten more for comparitavely less work than really almost anyone in the world except for trust fund babies and lottery winners.

This isnt to say that anyone could do what they do -- just that the money they have has come comparatively easy and yes, that means that they cant really concieve of what sort of importance a few grand can have to someone.

It's not OK to keep stolen money in either scenario, nor is it always possible to recover it.

If the actual property is found, arrangements can be made, but once it's been turned over, it's too late.

Guy robs a bank, goes on a spending spree, even if they know where he spent it, that money is gone forever.

If an illicit transfer of online stolen funds has occurred, you can put the brakes on and recover it, but once it's been legitimately put into play (as far as the other players are concerned) that money is gone.

Well take me for example, I consider myself a pretty succesful poker player/ advantage gambler. I'm very young (22) and I've won approx six figures gambling in countless different ways, poker being one of them.

In this time, I've worked harder than anyone I know, including many career driven people that I know. Right now, I work 200+ hour months... I used to drive all over Los Angeles finding the best high stakes games, staying up until 10-11 in the morning until a good game broke. I take hours upon hours to painstakingly analyze ever facet of my play. I am even willing to relocate out of the country in order to mantain my job. All of this while enduring the stress of losing thousands of dollars on a daily basis/ the US government trying as hard as they can to stop me from making my living. A living in which I am personally accountable for every mistake that I make. Most people couldn't even imagine how difficult all of this is, much less actually make it work. By contrast having a secure 9-5 almost seems like a cake-walk (unless you are in some insanely stressful on the move job like lawyering or I-banking or something like that)

I've had other 9-5 jobs, and while they might not have been as fulfilling, they were in no way shape or form "easier"... poker requires discipline, creativity, the ability to adapt, and most importantly personal responsibility. The fact that it is a "game" truly cheapens the merit of becoming successful through poker. In a way I find it tragic that many people who would look down on a poker player would look up to a professional sportsman such as Tiger Woods or LeBron James (not to say that you would). These are also people that through incredible talent and hard work have mastered what some might consider to be a foolish endeavor. I do not. I also appreciate "real" work... I understand that I am in no way "special" other than the gift of my mental abilities and the tremendous amount of effort I have expended cultivating them, and were it not for gambling I'd probably be next in line for a job in a mailroom somewhere.

Now consider someone like cole south... one of the benefactors of the kevstreet incident. I'm sure that despite his success, he has worked unbelievably hard to get where he is. And i'm damn certain that he knows the value of a dollar. I really do not think that poker pros are big babies, and I don't think that they are saying what they are saying out of some sort of spoiled cruelty. The issues they have raised in the HS thread are legitimate, and even with that being said, I guarantee that kevstreet gets at least some of his money back. That being said, the kevstreet "activists" should take a page from his book and be more humble about the situation instead of barging into the HS forum and telling everyone that they are spoiled brats who will burn in hell if they dont pay. There are certainly some ill willed comments in that thread but I wouldn't let one or two rotten apples spoil the bunch, I truly believe that the HS pros are for the most part mature & morally sound and if given the information and the opportunity to make the correct decision will do so.

/rant

I'm not sure of this, I feel like if someone robs a bank and then goes to coldwell banker and buys a house in cash the gvt can just say uve been given stolen money from a bank give it back. (then theyd obviously get the house back from the guy too but thats beside the point)

Aren't you guys tiring of these back and forth discussions? I really doubt kevstreet is in the mood to read for the 20th time of how somebody thinks there is an ethical case for giving money back and somebody thinks there isn't and so forth.

To me it feels as if someone would spend the whole time discussing speed limits and road safety at the funeral of someone who died in a car accident.

Maybe it's just me.

congrats on being a winning player. I am not- I pretty much suck- but I know it takes a lot of dedication, determination and drive. But at 22 you don't know what you don't know. The fact that you and others like you may put in a 90 hour week is not really the point. The point is that the $$, because you are so used to dealing w/ large sums of it, becomes unreal to you. But to the average person a loss of $15000, which may be a swing for you, can be life changing for others. As for "barging" into the HS forum I am one of those people who did. I wanted to make a point to them and I beleive as a member of 2+2 I have every right to post on whatever forum I want. I would assume- and correct me of I am wrong- that you are lucky enough to only be responsible for youself and are not (at 22) supporting a family, possibly parents, and have the responsibility that goes along with an adult life. If this is true you truly do not understand Kev's situation. people are going to do what they're going to do but I don't think it's wrong to let them know the circumstances of the issue and then let them make thier decision by following their own moral compass.

It's not just you.

+1


If anyone wanted to bring money back he would done or announce it that will be done so any discusion is pointless..lost money at HS will obviosly not be given back(I am realy not saying that it should be)...

still,I am sure that keev will be fine(if that is even possible,cause trauma will stay forever) after we set up that tournament..so hold on mate just for a few days and I hope you will be back on track.

PS-I have some e mail discusion with Pokerstars security and now I am waiting for a call to see if there is possible to arange with them that not a single account detail change is possible without double check like IP adress,phone call or something..

The point is so that you look at the situation from another angle. If you reread your post, you'll see that it provides a justification for why the advantaged players aren't obliged in any way to return money (ie. what's the difference if they win the money from joe schmoe, phil ivey, or a hacked account).

Just like ATM cards have automatic fraud detection abilities, I believe Poker sites must institute a similar thing for playing. If someone is a regular 2-4 Limit player and suddenly they are playing 25-50 NL and losing all their money, there should be automatic redflags that at least freeze the account. Not sure exactly how it'd work, but I think something like this needs to be done.

Any Update on the tourny? I can set up private tourny's on Pokerstars, so if I can help just let me know...

As of right now, I'm still waiting to hear back from Bryan S. Private tournies in and of themselves aren't the problem, but setting up custom structures and buyins requires the help of a Stars official. I'm going to leave it until tomorrow before chasing up my email in case he's been off for the weekend, but provisionally it's pencilled in for Sunday 26th July at 16:00 EST (tbc), the reason being that we'd like to get as much promotion for it in as possible once we can confirm the date. The second I know for certain and I have confirmation, I'll post announcement threads and start a publicity blitz.

Cheers!

btw why doesn't Pokerstars have an option to limit account usage to a single IP unless there is like a one week advance warning? (It would be up to the players to enroll and give a list of allowed IP addresses) FTP could do the same thing. I see no reason why such a policy couldn't be implemented and it would make these cases of fraud completely impossible.

I think that this is pretty unworkable. Players are allowed to call someone in an emergency situation (say, deep in the Sunday Million and you DC..) to play for them untill they can get to another address, and many players have a series of backups (aircards all the way down to dial up modems) that could have a number of different IP addresses.

you're also forgetting that poker sites are too greedy to sacrifice the % of rake they'd lose by doing this.

Obviously I have a reasonable amount to learn about life, but I understand that and respect what it entials, and you shouldn't label people as snobbish jerks unless they have earned it (not that you are calling me one but alot of the HS players have been called out for simply making reasonable arguments). Alot of people think that just because they are older or comparatively unsuccessful they are in a place to preach about the "facts of life" as if other people (especially people that are way more successful than either you or me) could never understand them.

I don't exactly have $15,000 swings, (near that amt tho during certain occasions in the past), but thats beside the point. Essentially you are saying that because I have earned a good amt of money I don't know the value of it. And that is just rubbish.

By your logic anyone who has become successful is ignorant and disrespectful to the value of money. I just don't agree with you.

I disagree. I think this is a great idea or at least something similar. Instead of IP address, isn't there a MAC Address that is unique to each computer? This way you could register your laptop and any backups you have and be able to play from them wherever you are, regardless of what IP address you're currently using. There could even be an option to allow "restricted access" like they have with the RSA Key security where if you log in using an unauthorized machine, you can only play in tournaments that you're already registered in.

I'm sure MAC Addresses can be spoofed just like IP Addresses, but the increased security would be huge. I'm not a hardware or network guy, so it may not be as simple as this, but there probably is something in the realm of what curtains is suggesting that can be done. Has anyone suggested this to PokerStars?

then i guess we'll have to agree to disagree

I said that it could be an option. It would certainly be workable for me because at most I use 2 IPs (and 1 IP 99.9% of the time). I'm not saying this needs to be mandatory for everyone, but I think that it should be an option for those who want extra security. I'd sure as hell keep more than the bare minimum in FTP if something like this was implemented. (secure RSA for FTP wouldn't be such a bad idea either)

I have a broadband connection, and my IP changes everytime I restart my router, so this wouldn't work for me. I suppose they could atleast have an ip-range, where at the least someone from another country couldn't login to your account.

The limits thing does seems like a good idea, in this case for example it would have worked perfectly. These can all be optional features you could opt into.

IP ranges are a good idea. One of the skins I played at had it imo.

Day stop losses are also a good idea and would have prevented this partially.

Might even be EV+ for the sites as they'd rather have the fish bleed money off slowly than go donk it off at high stakes quickly and pay only a fraction of that off in rake.