I really dont understand why the Stud games were cancelled.

I mean the knowledge cap between beginner and good player is much higher in holdem than in Stud.

Are new players who play HUSNGs also much less likely to turn up on the site again?

SpinWiz and Sharkystrator should be studied by FTP before introducing new lobbies. As Richas says above Pokerstars clearly intended Spin&Gos to be a random queue but Spinwiz destroyed that by creating an outside queue of regs that dribbles into the Pokerstars player pool. Sharkystrator similarly controls HUSNGs.

If FTP's aim is to level the playing field then these group-seating scripts must be prevented at FTP. Otherwise as FTP traffic grows it will incentivise Spinwiz/Sharkystrator-type tools to break the "level playing field".

At the moment, Pokerstars has an appalling ignorance about Spinwiz/Sharkystrator, not least of all because the creators and users of these tools actively deceive Pokerstars with carefully practised but deceptive verbiage.

FTP has a chance to get these lobbies right but they won't get it right if they naively follow Pokerstars Spin&Go model because that can be easily subverted by Spinwiz-type software.

BTW, I used to be a winning 100NL FR reg at FTP pre-BF but I left because post-BF there were few if any recreational players (ie I couldn't win!). I have been a winning 100NL 6-max Zoom reg at Pokerstars ever since. I would like to return to FTP because I prefer the software and I like what you are saying about banning seating scripts but I can't unless you attract sufficient recreational players that the winrates make sense for me.

''We’re reinventing our rewards programme so that it’s genuinely attractive to all players, not just those that play the most. It’s going to be fundamentally different from anything you’ve seen before and will go to the heart of what Full Tilt stands for: playing for the love of the game. . . We’re also restructuring our rake to fuel that new rewards system, which is going to connect with players of all levels, new and old, in a highly innovative way like no other online poker site ever has.''

Rake schedule can be found here

http://www.fulltilt.com/poker/rake

''The rake restructure will involve increasing contributions at the micro stakes (up to $0.05/$0.10) and increasing the rake cap at higher stakes ($5/$10 and $10/$20). It will remain the same everywhere else.''


I'm currently playing 10nl on my streams and once I have a big enough sample if I feel the rake is unbeatable then I will be bringing it up with management. I have played 3,500 hands at 10nl so far and have paid 13.5bb/100 in rake (probably much higher than most I'm a lag) and this is before the new rake gets brought in. My winrate so far is 6.25bb/100 was quite a bit higher but i got killed on my last stream for 3-4 buy-ins. Sample is too small though.

I'm not hiding anything more than happy to give you my stats for rake and winrate as I get more hands under my belt at those stakes. It will be interesting to see when the new rake changes come in how much extra I end up paying. Micro rake increase is something I wish they hadn't have chosen to do but until the new reward system gets brought in and the new rake changes take affect I don't want to make a final judgement.

Sorry I don't know the answer to this one. You can try asking Shyam on twitter @FTPMarkus or hopefully he will address it when he comes back to this thread.

Not really the place for this I do have a twitch chat thread on 2+2

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/24.../#post47698032

You have to subscribe to the channel to watch past broadcasts. Hope your enjoying the streams though.

ok, thats fair. But unless those changes give the players (recs and regs alike) something back, I dont see how the situation just didnt get worse for everyone.
At least communicate those very aggressively to the players you are targeting, so that they a) know something is changing and b) think its good for them.

On a side note: dont you think it would have been smart to introduce the new rewards system at the same time as a rake increase? Least of all the exact rake change should have been mentioned in the initial post here. I had to look it up on a another site now. For my above example, rake for an allin on NL10 went up from 10 to 11.x bb.
What do you think in general about the rake cap on the low limits?

I think that is what's happening, as far as I know the rake hasn't increased yet but I'm not certain on that.

The rake changes were clearly explained on the Full Tilt blog and there was a link to the post that had the mention of the changes in a banner ad that was running in client for quite a while after the announcement by Dominic. I don't feel FT were trying to slide it by anyone, the information was made readily available.

Like I said I'm going to reserve judgement until I have a bigger sample and the new rewards system comes in. I just don't have enough info from playing those stakes yet to feel confident making a final decision. Sorry I know that's not what you want to hear right now but I'm not oblivious to it and it's something I am keeping a close eye on for now.

I think rake has already gone up. 0.54 rake on a 9.79 $ pot should be the new system with 0.01/0.18 rake.

The sitout time also seems very short compared to before, can barely hit the bathroom and get something to eat and drink without getting kicked. What does this mean for being able to join back in? Does that timer apply there?

wow no games at NL $2.50/5 or up running
don't think this has solved much and I could be wrong but I think traffic has been way down this week

Looks like the new system has been brought in, I have a convenient $1.80 pot that got raked 10c yesterday. Not sure why I thought it hadn't been yet, apologies.

Which means my 13.5bb/100 number should be reasonably accurate - at that level I think I will beat the games, the question is for how much and I need a bigger sample to know that with certainty. So again check in with me in a few months when the new rewards system has been released and I can see how that affects my opinion.

As for sit-out timer I'm not sure what it is in regular games I play Rush on the stream and you can sit out for plenty of time still in those games.

Sparky, I thought you were going to multi quote. As a promoter of FTP, I really don't appreciate you completely spamming this thread non stop and making up 50% of the posts. It's just not right. Say your piece concisely and then allow 2+2 members to discuss. We get it, you love the changes.

It's not possible to multi-quote when your having a back and forth with one person who asks a follow up question to the post you just made. I have started using multi-quote where it's appropriate - just for you.

2+2 do have an ignore function if you weren't aware, if you add me to your list you won't see any posts from me.

at first I was really concerned about the new changes and was possibly willing to work with FT but after a couple days of reflection, my attitude has changed

if they changes affect me in such a way that what I am trying to accomplish is in jeopardy, my reaction will be simple and I will simply take my business elsewhere

FTP views their actions as business decisions, therefore I will view my reaction as a business decision, there are more sites to choose from just as from their perspective, there are more players to attract


edit: on an unrelated note, does FTP ever plan on having a feature that lets you hide your balance?

Let's be honest though, it's a concern if someone playing at your level has even the slightest bit of doubt that they can beat 10nl due to the level of the rake.

I just have no experience at small/micro stakes, I've never played below 200nl before these streams. So far I'm pretty confident I can and so far I am but I'd prefer to know if my winrate is say 3bb in which case rake is likely too high or 10bb in which case it's probably not before I try and speak with any sort of authority on the subject.

Ugh, stfu. Let the man do whatever he wants. Yes he's a promoter but sites get blamed when they never relay information to players and now you're blasting him for doing that. Happy for sparky to keep engaging in conversation and add his views. Keep it up. Its not like he's just doing PR for fulltilt...hes even said he wished they didn't do some things...
Sent from my ECOO E04 3GB using 2+2 Forums

@sparky your posts are constructive and I believe totally welcomed by about 99% of the posters and lurkers here

@insideman the other 1% welcome your comments

Sparky the issue with rake at the micros has nothing to do with whether it's beatable or not. It's whether enough micro players can survive long enough to have fun, and beat it long enough to move up (or at least shot take). So on this one I think your experiment likely won't prove much.

u really need to stop w this, why dont u create ur own thread and just talk to urself or some buddies if u dont like the convo here

thx for the suggestion
ignore insidemanpoker

The bolded is my concern.

Mine as well. Imo the objective from Full Tilt's pov is to set traps that players can't/won't/don't want to escape. If the player pool stays at 10nl and doesn't move up then there's an argument that Full Tilt will get insane margins since players at this stake don't often cash out so therefore the money just becomes rake given enough time.

Stars has done the exact same thing by giving huge fpp multipliers at their nano stakes to try and keep the players at that level where cashing out is not a realistic option. They also created another buy in at the low stakes a few years back for another level of keeping the money from getting into the hands of players that withdraw.

Very valid point. Seems like this is an issue the community feel pretty strongly about. Regardless of my results I will bring the topic up with management next time I'm in Dublin and ask to see some data on the topic.

So I played a couple of days ago (when it's just been launched) on this new platform for ring games and had a very bad experience with it. So bad that I haven't played since then, even though I planned to play every day this week in very high volumes. I was just disgusted. And I don't think I will come back to THIS.

I am a massive grinder, playing 12+ tables at all times (6-max) and for long hours. I am willing to play vs. anyone heads-up while starting 6-max tables, for as long as he would play me, and also willing to play in any lineup of players at a 6-max table at the stakes I am playing. So I am the one who always starts almost all the tables (the ones that haven't been running before I begun my session). But now there are no games for me to play in, or to start (I definitely not going to play 3-4 tables, and not less than 8).

When the changes just brought up and a discussion on this thread started, I posted that I thought it is a good idea in general (I still think it might be). BUT you need MASSIVE traffic, in the first place, for it to work well ! Now it is like playing rush/zoom poker with a players pool of less than 12. It just doesn't work. It's not fun.

Now, at stakes higher than 0.25/0.50 you have a maximum of 1-5 tables running (and most are 2-3-4 handed)! With the same names, and with LESS recreational players. In the past couple of weeks there were 7+ tables of 1/2 6-max running at peak time, now there is nothing pretty much. I found myself playing heads-up at 3-4 tables vs. another regular, and on another table it was 3 handed (with 2 regulars as well). Then, a bit later, after the other guy I played with heads-up left, it was two 3-handed tables (with 2 regulars) and one full table, and in the lobby it showed 18-22 players and 4-5 tables or so. And I realized how misleading this new lobby is, especially when you can't even see who is playing.

There were a couple of bumhunters who tried to join games, and when they saw it was me seating, or me and another regular, they just played their buttons and left. That's what you tried to achieve ?!?!?!!?

So first of all there is this limit of 6 tables per stake (which makes me very unhappy), but I realized there is no chance to reach even this limit with the current traffic on FullTilt. And also above 1/2 everything is totally dead (I suggested to bring back 2/4 and 3/6 limits in my previous post, instead of this one 2.5/5 limit).

It looks to me that FullTilt became kind of an experimental playground for the amaya group, just BECAUSE they have PokerStars. It seems like FullTilt can afford it just because they don't care since they are way smaller than pokerstars. So they came to the point there is no much to lose for them. The best example for it is this thread - If such changes were implemented on stars overnight, there would have been a tsunami of posters and threads, and they were all exploding. But here you need one very dedicated FullTilt ambassador (sparky) to keep it alive. Because here there is no real, or any, lobby for the players.

Otherwise, it just makes no sense to me why there is such a massive dis-balance between the sites in their approaches towards bumhunters and unethical players. PokerStars became a very hospitable hub for such players (because there are just a lot/too many of them on their site and they have a pretty strong lobby on 2p2, so they kind of afraid to tackle the problem directly) and FullTilt are making now such big efforts to make it tough on them. This is something I do appreciate. But the way they execute is wrong in my opinion.

I think in your (FullTilt) thought process the main mistake was/is that you separate players into two groups/categories : 1) The innocent recreational players. 2) The regulars - The greedy bumhunters who will exploit every singe hole in the system to gain every single, minimal, edge they can.
I won't blame you for thinking like that about the regulars, because most of them are indeed such type of players.

But there is a third group actually - 'The good Regulars/grinders' - regulars who are willing to play vs. anyone, in all lineups, who have good ethics, and who are responsible for most ring games running and therefor most rake generated.
You have to remember, that if not these regulars, there were no bumhunters and less recreational players because games wouldn't start in the first place.

Two recreational players would never start a game, and two bumhunters would never start a game. So even if 50% of games started between two good and ethical regulars, and the other 50% by a recreational player joining a regular then still the value of this type of regulars is just MASSIVE. Because if those two regulars, responsible for a table running, were not there, there will be no table running in the first place !!! And then instead of generating rake from 6+ players (because of these two 'good' regulars) you will generate rake from zero players. And also those regulars are paying the most rake themselves compared to everyone else, because usually they are the heaviest grinders. Also, the fact that there are more tables running has a big affect and value by itself, because when a recreational player (who you are trying to please so much), looks at the lobby and don't see much action, it by itself takes away a lot of his motivation to deposit and play. No one likes to enter an empty restaurant. So all of these factors, makes this specific group of regulars super valuable for the site (or for any site). But unfortunately you don't treat them as such.

You cancelled the Black Card Sponsorship program. Why ? You could have keep the same reward for 1st place (or cut it by 10% just so you can get this 10% if you need it that much), and also add a 2nd and 3rd place to the rewards, as you do now. But instead you cut it out drastically for the 1st place and added a 2nd and 3rd place (also with kind of a lousy rewarding). Also you rewarded extra $500, $300, $200 in this same program for 1st,2nd, and 3rd, it was nice by itself. It actually was a good feeling to get one of these prizes, and also gave some extra motivation to a lot of the players, who had a chance to win it, to play longer (and rake more). But you cut it out and merged all the types of leaderboards. If you kept it, it would have cost you $800 per leaderboard x 5 = $4000, but noooo it's way too much for you to spend.
That's the cheap and disrespectful approach, it seems, you have towards the most important players to you (yes, MUCH more important than the recreational players, with all the respect).
You always make it worse and worse for the most valuable and important players for you.

I wonder if there will be one time when the good grinders receive a good news for them, for example more and better rewards for their efforts.

*** The last few paragraphs are also aimed to the upcoming changes in the rewards system you are planning to bring soon. I can only imagine what those changes will look like (at least for the good and ethical group of grinders).

Hi Shyam,

thank you for responding. I've come up with a heads up model I'd like to discuss with you and everyone else. I've put in a lot of thought into it and believe this system accommodates the Site, the Recs, and the Pros fairly as well as delivering a smooth experience for the player.

Poker is clearly no longer as lucrative as it was before. Gone are the days where there is limitless action to be from .05/.1 to 500/1k. Professionals used to believe (and many still do) they had a right to an easy living but those days are gone, this is an unsustainable system. We have to leave the old model and go with a new meritocratic model that is self-sustaining, fair, and gives players incentive to get better and earn their way to the top.

Currently 6max plays about 65 hands per hour, using Mid-Stakes rake, they generate $182 in rake per table from 1/2-3/6 – it's actually less than that due to the table cap not being hit 100% of the time

Heads up is raked at $.5 per hand, a heads up table sees about 120 hands per hour. Making each table worth $60 in rake. Thus, a 3 tabling heads up match is equivalent to 1 6max table assuming 5 regs and a Rec Player, yet in HU just the idea of playing a Rec can generate between 1-4 tables of Reg on Reg action. I point this out because heads up is not one sidedly a bad game for the site. It's the structure of the HU lobby is the problem, not the game itself. Utilized correctly, it can be a fun revenue-generating system.

Heads up is unique from 6max in that a pro plays for the possibility to go up against a Rec player. Unlike 6max, the Rec player is not required to be at the table for the games to go. The opportunity to play the Rec is the incentive and the Rec gets what he wants, instant action at a click of a button.





It's poker's toughest mountain. Do you have what it takes to be King ?



There are no waitlists, there is no waiting for someone to play, there is only constant action.

The rules:

• You are given One Life aka One Table Move, Maximum Capacity is Two
• Once you sit, you are randomly matched up with a player
• If you play for 30 minutes, you are given one more Request Move (Maximum Limit is 2)
• If you leave a table before the 30 Minute Mark, you lose One Table Move and should you have none, you will be unable to play the King for One Hour
• Should you beat your opponent or he leaves before the 30 minute mark, you gain One Table Move
• If you both play for 30 minutes, you each are awarded One Table Move
• Tables are limitless (think of it as a Rush pool without playing Rush)

to be clear, let's say you use up your Table Move and end up battling someone for one hour, you are now back to Two Table Moves.

It's not accurately King of the Hill but I picked the name because if your data is undeniably true, then we cannot attract the Recs who will come and never play poker again. We want the ones who know what they're getting into, want a challenge, and enjoy heads up.

Other names that I liked: The Arena, Colosseum, you get the idea.


I want to add that I wholeheartedly believe this is a system that will work only on FTP. It is congruent with their new Pool to Play system (is that what it's called?). Because all games are like this, this model fits in perfectly with FTP's new theme. Should iPoker do something like this, it would be a weird whacky addition that doesn't fit w/the rest of their model.

^^ Great Idea