Don't you remember what players wanted BEFORE the changes

this is what they wanted :



and now that WC has been implemented what you guys are basically saying is :

KEEP THE WC (STARS PLEASE **** US UP) but make the rake 4.5 as it was (BUT PLEASE DECREASE THE LEVEL U **** US UP WITH ABOUT 10.1%)...


I ASK AND STRIKE FOR RETURNING DEALT METHOD! if not I STRIKE TO BE COMPENSATED FOR ANY % that I'VE BEEN RIPPED OFF..


OPEN YOUR EYES PPL.

I strike for laughs and FU Stars.

Dude, did you even read my suggestions? Obviously a rake deduction is what benefits whole player pool most equally and that is what I suggested. A 6.5x multiplier is mostly directed towards people who want to go for SNE. You're really being a hypocrite here.

Also I never even tried to say that what I suggest is the best option. I think it's a decent option and a more beneficial one for the whole player pool than increasing VPP. I'm trying to discuss this and I'm very open to input, but you're not being constructive in any way whatsoever.

Out of all my suggestions, 6x VPP for all cash games is what I would concede the easiest if it came along with further rake reductions for everyone. However, i still just don't see the logical reason for the indifference between 6-max and FR.

If you want to stick to your sustainability argument go ahead and demand higher VPP specifically for Cap games. The data is there. That is the strict logical conclusion of what you should do based on what you're writing. If that's not what you stand for, than you're just being a hypocrite who is not contributing to this discussion at all.

this couldn't have come at a worser time. 2012 was going to be my first attempt at SNE. im IN for 1 day. 24 tables of 100NL. - brett_farv3

Did you read mine? Your suggestions right now are almost exactly what Stars offered the first time around only now you get 6VPP/$ This does close to nothing to help FR grinders. Unless somebody comes up with some reasonable well thought out changes that alleviate some of the losses for everybody and make all of the games more sustainable long term I really do not see why anybody besides 6max players should take part in this protest. As it stands now you guys are liable to do more harm than good.

7VPP/$ or 6.5vpp/$ nothing less.. (at least for FR)

and I'm sure every FR grinder will ask this so this is the "new" request.

not the 6vpp/$ (for FR at least) for 6 max I think its fine.

what scares me is latest trend how poker sites treat winning regs. what if PS just ban first strikers wave and there won't be another wave, because people will be scared? we don't see people like Roy, Bruut and other high volume long time regs asking to add them on strikers list. what i mean, if PS ban 10 small/micro stakes grinders who doesn't rake as much as 1 SNE - not a biggie for them, because micro/small will always run there's a ton of players playing them. i think they care most about SNE volume regs playing mid/high cash games, because they are one who start/keep tables running.

also why they made so awful changes to PS.fr? there was strike last year, they knew there will be 100% strike this year too. maybe they will use more drastic aproach vs this year strike?

gl to all strikers, i'm just a too big of a wuss to join movement, my gut says this will not end well for strikers with latest trend how poker sites treat winning regs (seems like they want to get rid of them)...

People who want to be stars pro aren't going to strike now are they?

Well I am a SN and I will risk my main source of income by going on strike.
Can you imagine the ****storm it would generate if they ban ppl that are striking? 2+2 would explode

Please consider to get behind this:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1224

instead/combined with the ones posted by TheMetetrown (edited into the first post).

For one, being close to what Stars originally offered is probably a good sign that we would have a chance of getting it. They will most likely never give you 6.5x VPP.

I'm also quite confused that you completely neglect the additional improvements, like lowering rake on micro and small stakes, reducing rake caps in small and mid stakes games. At least the last one should be immediately beneficial to you as well (not that this should be a criteria by which you judge my suggestions).

We have to be reasonable here and most likely we only get our way if we demand something that approximately redistributes the amount of money Stars will have additionally due to the change to WC.

I honestly would rather like to redistribute to everyone by lowering the rake, than by just giving it back to high volume players in a system which is already extremely top heavy. I do think micro and small stakes deserve extra attention. I think the changes I suggested for those games are quite relevant and I'd be happy to see those implemented.

I don't understand how you suggest I would be arguing for myself, I obviously don't play small stakes or lower and yet this what I've been talking about a lot. I also said I would concede 6x VPP for 6-max for further rake decreases, even though I think it's an illogical indifference that should be fixed.

You're being nothing but hypocritical and avoiding my criticism. All you care about is to get the same that you got before. Honestly, I think getting a rake reduction from 5% to 4.5% with a decreased rake cap is not that bad of a trade if, at the same time, the overall health of various stakes will increase significantly, which will benefit all regs in the end.

Full ring players need 6.5x - 7x vpp to make up for some of the huge losses WC causes. No point asking for 6x which they already have.

+1

I think a lot of people who lost 20-25% of rakeback on something they shouldn't have been getting in the first place should give up trying to aim for getting fully compensated for their losses. I know it must be tough for you but the reason stars changed to the WC system is obviously to stop you from freeloading off of the system, so they're obviously not going to change it back and hence you shouldn't get fully compensated for it either.

Anyway:

As I've said before, get organised, figure out what is beneficial for all players (rake reduction/flexible caps for micros) and send some qualified/reputable people to negotiate with stars.

I actually laughed when I saw that poll

63 people voted for WC
120 people voted for WC with added rakeback/lower rake

those 63 people are plain ******ed, "I want WC but I don't want less rake or more rakeback"

Sorry for x-post, but:

That is actually not true, which I just realized.

Let's assume a mid stakes FR player who rakes 30k and gets 35% rakeback. Under dealt he had 36k MGR and got 12.6k rakeback, paying 17.4k in rake. With 4.5% rake and 2.5$ rake cap it's probably slightly more than 10% less rake. So let's say he pays 27k rake, gets 9.45k rakeback equalling to 17.55k rake paid. It's essentially the same, which kinda surprises me as well.

This would be even better for small stakes and way better for micro stakes if my suggestions were to be implemented.

I am aware however that overall rakeback percentages would be slightly smaller. It'd still be a good change considering that it benefits the player base as a whole a lot more.

I am SNE and I WILL be going on SIT OUT STRIKE......


sooo.......

I'm proud you guys are keeping this up.

I haven't been contacted by anyone on Poker Stars and as far as I know others haven't either.

Steve, were you serious about a dialogue with players or not?

Honestly at this point, they don't seem very willing to budge and we sure as hell aren't going to just decide to stop, so it looks like two days until we shut down Stars indefinitely. Maybe management needs to see the $$$ disappearing, but this is really only ruining their already damaged reputation even more.

Let's not get caught up in the exact details guys, it isn't the most important thing. Hopefully, Stars will work with a small group of players that is a representative sample of the community to come up with changes that work for everything. The main thing here is to remain united!

We all want the same thing. Lower effective rake either through actually lowering the rake or increasing rakeback in some manner. However Stars feels is best to do it is fine, but we won't accept this cash grab while Stars screws us over in the process.

say PS are smart enough to counter this strike and make some changes in their TOS.

say strikers get banned. 2+2 explodes, regs know that they can't sit out or they will get banned, so they they just stop playing, some withdraw money and move to other sites while nagotiation is still going on with PS. volume at mid/high stake cash games drops down, but there are still regs playing because now they get more rec players to themselves. small/micro stakes still running a ton, because of massive player pool they won't get much affected if regs from those stakes decide to not play (still many will say that they won't play, but actually will play and use situation to their advantage).

as we know PS has massive SNG/MTT player pool, so they could switch their attention even more on that pool giving promotion, making more big tourneys during week collecting a ton in rake anyways. also, PS are considering to add higher buy in levels at hyper turbo SNG's which will atract many SNE chasers from SNG/MTT player pool.

after week's of unsuccessful nagotiation or minimal changes in grinders favore most players swallow reality and return back to playing at PS.

i think most of these demands are pretty ridic from PS standpoint, because it's a business and they can ran it however they want and without every 2+2 reg. we don't know how much they would lose, maybe they wouldn't lose much if anything, because never every 2+2 reg would quit.

i think why strike on PS.fr worked last year, because of relatively small player base, which isn't case for PS.com.

This is not about ridiculous demands, PS decided to cut our RB by 20% and we are outraged, which is understandable. PS is universually loved by the community, a large part of the reasons why is their good support and that they have generally handled themselves with class and respect for their players. They have build up a LOT of goodwill over the years.

If they decided to ban players on strike, most of that goodwill will be gone withing hours/days. I dont see how it would be worth it for them to do so... .

Edit: come to think about it, the way PS has handled themselves in the last days, they are already jeopardizing a lot of that good will right now, especially with the grinders... .

I was pissed when FTP went WC but at least they had Black Card to soften the blow, this just plain sucks ass. Squeezing more juice out of the already fragile Poker ecosystem might come back to bite Stars in the end.

I'm in.

i understand what you are saying, but as i stated before latest trend how poker sites treat winning regs is pretty worrying.

and i'm afraid PS will take same route many other sites/networks are implementing. maybe...

Updates list on ppl sitting out?

Zero dialogue on stars part what a joke. Acting like FTP now

Will be sitting out @ 24 tables 100nlhe!

I'd also like to say I'd gladly fly to the Isle of Man (though I don't see how it is necesssary) to ensure that Stars is distributing the same amount of FPPs as before this change. That's really what people are asking for in the end. If you are distributing less FPPs, then bump the multiplier up to compensate for that so that you aren't anymore.

Or, lower the rake to compensate. Or up the value of FPPs to compensate. Or any other number of things that have been proposed.

This isn't rocket science Stars. If you are sincere, contact me and a few others, sit us down in a chat room, and I guarantee you we can hammer out something fair for everyone, including Stars, within 24 hours.

If you aren't sincere about caring about your players opinions, well then you can keep doing what you are doing. And then everyone loses.