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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.01%
Undecided 892 9.05%
Voters: 9859. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-03-2010, 11:15 AM   #12851
tk1133
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Why is it so bad that we(USA) want our government to police and regulate our country?
Not the Isle of Mann or the Kahnawakee Indians regulating our Industry.

Either way that's not the point. The UIGEA isn't b/c a bunch of rigtards signed a petition that online poker was rigged, and since it's not ran by the USA it "must be corrupt..."

Whatever it is, if regulation and Frank's bill fail, Online poker in the USA will be no more...
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Old 02-03-2010, 11:27 AM   #12852
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Rigulation!
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Old 02-03-2010, 11:33 AM   #12853
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Rigulation!
lol!
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Old 02-03-2010, 11:43 AM   #12854
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Why is it so bad that we(USA) want our government to police and regulate our country?
But you already do, don't you?
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Old 02-03-2010, 11:48 AM   #12855
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I found the variance simulation data very interesting. Thanks for posting a link to that.

Once again, I am not convinced online poker is rigged but my main focus here is discuss the fact that there is very much a possiblity that it could be.

I know I am not a world class player and the first thing I intend to do is do a thourough analysis of my play over the next 5k-10k hands.

The belief that the game is not rigged because all statistical results have fallen within variance for the hands played seems silly. What you might need are hand histories for a large chunk of the playerbase showing all pocket cards to be certain of any tampering with the deal.

This data will never be obtained and makes the "I will pay you X dollars for proof" a total "appeal to ignorance" fallacy.

Definition: In the appeal to ignorance, the arguer basically says, "Look, there's no conclusive evidence on the issue at hand. Therefore, you should accept my conclusion on this issue."
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:06 PM   #12856
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I think it's hilarious people are layin out chump change for "proof." How about this, get your 2+2 partners together, affiliates and poker sites, put up over 6 figures, then such a request will be taken seriously...
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:10 PM   #12857
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xevoius View Post
I found the variance simulation data very interesting. Thanks for posting a link to that.

Once again, I am not convinced online poker is rigged but my main focus here is discuss the fact that there is very much a possiblity that it could be.

I know I am not a world class player and the first thing I intend to do is do a thourough analysis of my play over the next 5k-10k hands.

The belief that the game is not rigged because all statistical results have fallen within variance for the hands played seems silly. What you might need are hand histories for a large chunk of the playerbase showing all pocket cards to be certain of any tampering with the deal.

This data will never be obtained and makes the "I will pay you X dollars for proof" a total "appeal to ignorance" fallacy.

Definition: In the appeal to ignorance, the arguer basically says, "Look, there's no conclusive evidence on the issue at hand. Therefore, you should accept my conclusion on this issue."
I'll give you the same list of questions I give most riggies

1) If it is rigged (ie: RnG rigged) why has nobody discovered it yet?

2) If it is rigged why has nobody involved in it told yet, including all the people from now closed sites?

3) Why would they care about rigging it against you (which is the basis of most riggie beliefs). Basically, why do you matter that much?

4) Why can riggies see "patterns" that stats freaks cannot prove?

5) Why don't riggies capitalize on their pattern recognition skills?



Basically I try to appeal to common sense, knowing exactly how appealing that concept is to riggies, but I am essentially going with the same approach as I would use with Lizard People.

1) If Lizard People exist why have we not discovered it yet?

2) If Lizard People exist, how have all the people who know about it kept it a secret for so long, including those on deathbeds (where people admit all sorts of stuff)

3) Why would Lizard People care if you knew about them or not?

4) How can guys like David Icke see patterns of Lizard People behavior that others cannot

5) Hey, at least David Icke made a ton of money peddling his beliefs, so props to a lizzie (ie: lizard person riggie) that actually made something of his beliefs.


Same thing, only at least the Lizard Person guy made some money from his beliefs. Good for him.


I opt for Lizard People given the choices. They are more fun.


All the best.
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:12 PM   #12858
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by SwedishMedusa View Post
In theory I agree with you, but in reality the vast majority of casual players will not play enough hands for "luck" to even out, and it's not even close.

Check out this post, including a graph showing 100 players with identical EV and their results after 500k hands:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=256

That said, I do believe that most players who come here to complain about their "bad luck" are simply just much worse at poker than they thought.
Wrong! I am a winning player, not as much as I like, but good enough to have a +ROI...
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:20 PM   #12859
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
I'll give you the same list of questions I give most riggies

1) If it is rigged (ie: RnG rigged) why has nobody discovered it yet?

2) If it is rigged why has nobody involved in it told yet, including all the people from now closed sites?

3) Why would they care about rigging it against you (which is the basis of most riggie beliefs). Basically, why do you matter that much?

4) Why can riggies see "patterns" that stats freaks cannot prove?

5) Why don't riggies capitalize on their pattern recognition skills?



Basically I try to appeal to common sense, knowing exactly how appealing that concept is to riggies, but I am essentially going with the same approach as I would use with Lizard People.

1) If Lizard People exist why have we not discovered it yet?

2) If Lizard People exist, how have all the people who know about it kept it a secret for so long, including those on deathbeds (where people admit all sorts of stuff)

3) Why would Lizard People care if you knew about them or not?

4) How can guys like David Icke see patterns of Lizard People behavior that others cannot

5) Hey, at least David Icke made a ton of money peddling his beliefs, so props to a lizzie (ie: lizard person riggie) that actually made something of his beliefs.


Same thing, only at least the Lizard Person guy made some money from his beliefs. Good for him.


I opt for Lizard People given the choices. They are more fun.


All the best.
If there was an Italian Cosa Nostra(in the USA) why did it take so long for the FBI to aknowledge such a phenomenon?
It took over 60 years before somebody "snitched"

Why did it take humans over 30,000 years to discover electricity, flight, industrial revolution ect ect..?

To make a long story short:
Somebody is going to come out about lizard people and show hard core proof of their true powers...But when they do, George Bush and all the lizard people will have migrated back underground , so it'll be too late...

Last edited by tk1133; 02-03-2010 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:20 PM   #12860
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I know these are isolated events but I think they are relevent to the topic to show that you do not have to manipulate many hands to get the money passed around the table.

I get on a microstakes table 6 seat cash game and decide to play extremely tight. My VPIP was about 10 as was my PFR. I build up one buyin over about 200 hands and then these two hands come down the pipe.

8c,10c BB vs Kc,3c SB - I am the big blind and he is the small blind and he just completes. The flop comes Jc,Ac,Qc and he bets pot and I call. The turn comes a 10d and he checks and I bet 2/3 the pot and get checkraised all-in. I have him more than twice covered and I call and see half of my profits gone to a cooler.

Three hands later...

As,10s vs Qh,8c - We are three handed and I am on the button and I have about 2:1 on him in chips he has VPIP of 60, I raise to 4xs BB and get called, flop comes 5d9h10c and he leads out betting pot and I call, turn comes a Ac and he decideds to push all in representing the A hit him and I insta-call. Of course the river is a Js and I am back where I started two hours ago - dead even.

These hands are not to show that the site was rigged but to bring up the point that a site does not have to manipulate many hands at all to have a huge impact on how the money flows.

One skewed hand every 200-500 hands can drastically change the way the money on the table moves in no-limit so seeing data as manipulated when you are dealing with variance effecting outcomes would definately not be obvoius.
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:23 PM   #12861
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xevoius View Post
I know these are isolated events but I think they are relevent to the topic to show that you do not have to manipulate many hands to get the money passed around the table.

I get on a microstakes table 6 seat cash game and decide to play extremely tight. My VPIP was about 10 as was my PFR. I build up one buyin over about 200 hands and then these two hands come down the pipe.

8c,10c BB vs Kc,3c SB - I am the big blind and he is the small blind and he just completes. The flop comes Jc,Ac,Qc and he bets pot and I call. The turn comes a 10d and he checks and I bet 2/3 the pot and get checkraised all-in. I have him more than twice covered and I call and see half of my profits gone to a cooler.

Three hands later...

As,10s vs Qh,8c - We are three handed and I am on the button and I have about 2:1 on him in chips he has VPIP of 60, I raise to 4xs BB and get called, flop comes 5d9h10c and he leads out betting pot and I call, turn comes a Ac and he decideds to push all in representing the A hit him and I insta-call. Of course the river is a Js and I am back where I started two hours ago - dead even.

These hands are not to show that the site was rigged but to bring up the point that a site does not have to manipulate many hands at all to have a huge impact on how the money flows.

One skewed hand every 200-500 hands can drastically change the way the money on the table moves in no-limit so seeing data as manipulated when you are dealing with variance effecting outcomes would definately not be obvoius.
FBI published some research on this, but were stone walled on publishing the full report...
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:26 PM   #12862
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Your faith in fair online gambling is what is funny.
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:32 PM   #12863
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Xevoius View Post
Your faith in fair online gambling is what is funny.
Who are you refering to? What draws you to that conclusion?
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:35 PM   #12864
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I could have read it wrong but your FBI post seemed like it was drenched in sarcasm.

My bad if I was wrong.

Btw, I think your idea about an organization putting up a nice chunk of change motivating a team to some research is a good idea and will eventually happen.

~Cheers
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:36 PM   #12865
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Donald Rumsfeld ITT

Quote:
There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.
Quote:
The absence of evidence, is not the evidence of absence.
This video may help understand; by courtesy of mister Samuel L. Not recommended for the faint of heart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkU4t2dUEwk



Obviously, this is just general philosophical discussion, and doesn't change anything about the fact that online poker is in fact NOT rigged.

Last edited by Lenny-T; 02-03-2010 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:42 PM   #12866
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Wrong! I am a winning player, not as much as I like, but good enough to have a +ROI...
Reading comprehension?
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:49 PM   #12867
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xevoius View Post
I know these are isolated events but I think they are relevent to the topic to show that you do not have to manipulate many hands to get the money passed around the table.

I get on a microstakes table 6 seat cash game and decide to play extremely tight. My VPIP was about 10 as was my PFR. I build up one buyin over about 200 hands and then these two hands come down the pipe.

8c,10c BB vs Kc,3c SB - I am the big blind and he is the small blind and he just completes. The flop comes Jc,Ac,Qc and he bets pot and I call. The turn comes a 10d and he checks and I bet 2/3 the pot and get checkraised all-in. I have him more than twice covered and I call and see half of my profits gone to a cooler.

Three hands later...

As,10s vs Qh,8c - We are three handed and I am on the button and I have about 2:1 on him in chips he has VPIP of 60, I raise to 4xs BB and get called, flop comes 5d9h10c and he leads out betting pot and I call, turn comes a Ac and he decideds to push all in representing the A hit him and I insta-call. Of course the river is a Js and I am back where I started two hours ago - dead even.

These hands are not to show that the site was rigged but to bring up the point that a site does not have to manipulate many hands at all to have a huge impact on how the money flows.

One skewed hand every 200-500 hands can drastically change the way the money on the table moves in no-limit so seeing data as manipulated when you are dealing with variance effecting outcomes would definately not be obvoius.
Well Spadebidder would tell you otherwise.

That said, a poker site does not have to manipulate ANY hands, because the money will flow anyway. Bad players will suck out all the time, it is one of the inevitabilities of poker. Those hands are simply a few of those "wow, that sucks, but that's poker" hands.

Or are you suggesting that in a fair game hands like those would never occur?
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:50 PM   #12868
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

You said most rigtards are here b/c we're bad players. I can prove that to be false.

LoL why are we still stuck on the RNG and the way cards are dealt, that's soooo 2005...
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:51 PM   #12869
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by SwedishMedusa View Post
Well Spadebidder would tell you otherwise.

That said, a poker site does not have to manipulate ANY hands, because the money will flow anyway. Bad players will suck out all the time, it is one of the inevitabilities of poker. Those hands are simply a few of those "wow, that sucks, but that's poker" hands.

Or are you suggesting that in a fair game hands like those would never occur?
I'm suggesting that games are rigged by players, not RNG's...I mean do I seriously have to create a thread with a poll...?
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:56 PM   #12870
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xevoius View Post
I could have read it wrong but your FBI post seemed like it was drenched in sarcasm.

My bad if I was wrong.

Btw, I think your idea about an organization putting up a nice chunk of change motivating a team to some research is a good idea and will eventually happen.

~Cheers
LoL, no you need a nice chunk of change to motivate somebody to leave the TEAM he's already on...
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:57 PM   #12871
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
You said most rigtards are here b/c we're bad players. I can prove that to be false.
No I said that most rigtards are not as good as they think they are, and blame rigging for the discrepancy between their actual results and their (by themselves) estimated EV.

I therefore found your reply funny. DUCY?

(I also used the word "most" meaning that your personal record will not prove anything either way (not that I can either but I never said I could).)
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:59 PM   #12872
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Lenny-T View Post
Obviously, this is just general philosophical discussion, and doesn't change anything about the fact that online poker is in fact probably NOT rigged.
FYP
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:59 PM   #12873
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
I'm suggesting that games are rigged by players, not RNG's...I mean do I seriously have to create a thread with a poll...?
I think you seriously need to explain what you mean with "rigged by players".
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Old 02-03-2010, 01:02 PM   #12874
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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I think you seriously need to explain what you mean with "rigged by players".
I've "seriously" explained it numerous times...

And many of YOU reading this thread that are too chicken **** to post, know what I'm talking about! Create a name and post, takes 1 minute to sign up...
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Old 02-03-2010, 01:05 PM   #12875
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You said most rigtards are here b/c we're bad players. I can prove that to be false.
Please do.
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