The "action hands" theory has been debunked about a gazillion times already in this thread. Rake is capped on Pokerstars. So, every dollar in the pot that excedes the rake cap is money that the site isn't making a dime on. Unless the site is trying to make less money, having action hands that lead to many pots going over the cap limit is pretty dumb.

Not at all. I'm ready to reconsider the fact that I was wrong. I know that's a rare quality these days but you should not be so hopeless.
Seems like a really deceiving move from Poker Stars to make it seem like you are watching a game in real time though...

It is not hopeless so much as riggie math. You have not yet said you were wrong when you were just wrong. You said you are willing to consider the possibility even though it is a 100% situation. You then added how the way they present it is deceiving, when it is not. Not easy for riggies to give up those paranoid beliefs, even on something where the riggie made a verifiable error.

All the best.

Everyone playing online should seriously consider quitting.

Why do you think I'm a moron?

Interesting username BTW, reminds me of another Dewd.

Advice I have given riggies for a long time as nearly every riggie should quit as they cannot compete in this industry. Riggies as a species are woefully unqualified and in general they all lack the mental discipline needed to succeed. Despite this, most riggies play much, much longer than they should as evident by their whining here and some continue to whine and visit this forum for months or years after they quit, which is kind of weird, but riggies are gonna riggie. For what it is worth - nearly every genuine riggie has quit by now and the riggie culture is quite dead.

Others who have the skills to compete and make decent money at it or those who play for amusement (and do not care about how much they win or lose) should continue of course as they like as long as they play within their limits.

All the best.

Quite so!

After due consideration, everyone can decide for themselves whether or not playing is a sufficiently satisfying experience for them.

And re-thinking that decision on occasionally might also be wise.

I myself play for amusement. (Which is a good thing, since single-tabling nanostakes ain't gonna get me rich.)

we are still waiting for the screenshot of your Global Poker "Transactions" page proving that you are not a bragger

Define decent money.

As is often the case in this industry - "that depends." The costs to maintain a decent standard of living varies quite a bit around the world, so how much you make will depend upon that. A person in England needs to make a ton more than someone in Brazil, hence you have large stables of essentially human bots in Brazil (that get replaced by others when they are deep in tourneys), because poker represents a way to make more money than a regular job. This is hardly a new or innovative concept and it is why you see a ton of players from countries with lower cost of living grinding the lower stakes.

Your questions suggests you do not really understand these type of basic concepts, but they are just that - basic. A person needs to figure out how much they need to make each month and then can they do that from poker (assuming they want to play poker). If they can on a consistent basis and they prefer playing poker than doing a regular job - then go for it, but realize that the industry always changes, so what may be possible today may not be in the near future. I would not recommend online poker as a career for randos asking if they can do it. This is not 2006 where even someone like you could win at the tables. Hope that answers your question.

All the best.

I can't prove that I'm not a bragger. You know why? Because I am a bragger! I brag to people all the time about how I haul in about ten cents an hour playing online poker. I mean, who wouldn't brag about that?

I take from your reponse that you define "decent money" as enough to maintain a decent standard of living. That's still not particularly well defined. Also, what do you class as a regular job? Use one of your own examples if you like. How much does a regular job pay in England, or the US for example? And how much does online poker pay in comparison for the mean microstakes grinder? Does decent money involve buying a house? Be more specific please, these are basic concepts.

It's also implicit that if someone actually wanted to make a living at poker (TBD) they would need to move to a country where the cost of living is so low that they could grind microstakes. That might work for a year or so, or it might not. How many people in England, or the US are making a decent living (TBD) playing online poker?

Not sure what to tell you. If you do not understand what the concept of standard of living is then my spending an inordinate amount of time trying to explain it to someone who either lacks the ability or is willingly ignorant of it is pointless in terms of educating you. Still, I have a little extra time right now so let's have a little fun showing you how easy your questions are to answer. First, let me give you the Wiki page for Living wage and you can explore it as you like, which I assume will mean not at all

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_wage

It starts with the following:

A living wage is defined as the minimum income necessary for a worker to meet their basic needs.[3] This is not the same as a subsistence wage, which refers to a biological minimum, or a solidarity wage, which refers to a minimum wage tracking labor productivity. Needs are defined to include food, housing, and other essential needs such as clothing. The goal of a living wage is to allow a worker to afford a basic but decent standard of living through employment without government subsidies.[4] Due to the flexible nature of the term "needs", there is not one universally accepted measure of what a living wage is and as such it varies by location and household type.[5] A related concept is that of a family wage – one sufficient to not only support oneself, but also to raise a family.


Again, this really depends. I completed my MBA so a "regular job" for me when I finished that was likely quite different than what it would be for you with I assume no formal education. Many poker players are either students or do not have a formal education and are 20-27ish on average. Most indicate that their alternative job would be some form of manual labor or essentially a minimum wage type job. Students can be different as this can be a nice extra source of money until they finish their degree and begin their professional career in what they are studying. Several dozen or probably well over 100 players I have worked with were students that became doctors, lawyers, accountants and a few became chefs.

As we are mostly talking about unskilled labor - the easiest stat to use is minimum wage. In case you do not understand the term - the minimum wage is the smallest amount allowed to be paid to an employee. Minimum wage in England is £9.50 an hour for those 23 and above and £9.18 for those 21 and 22. US minimum wage is $7.25 an hour which is idiotic how low it is (it is higher in some states). You should learn how to google this type of information - it is not hard.


Again, it depends on that particular players needs. A student looking to make extra income is in a much different situation than a person with a family of 4 and a mortgage to pay. The cost of everything varies depending on which country (and which part of the country) the player lives in. I am not going to break down the economic situation of the near unlimited number of possibilities. These are basic concepts so you should be able to do the math of a specific example if you really wanted, but I do not get the feeling you actually care about this information.

Not everyone grinds microstakes. People in the USA can certainly easily make more than minimum wage with any kind of skill at the micros, but I am not sure I would classify the minimum wage in the USA as a decent wage. Canada's minimum wage in contrast is about the equivalent of $12 an hour (in US funds).

I assume this is all some weird charade on your part to imply that this industry is not one in which people can succeed in and that stems from I assume your inability to succeed in it. It is a tough industry and players need to be better and smarter and more emotionally stable than before. The easy free money days where even someone like you could make money are long gone. Yes, people can make a good amount still in this industry and yes many are doing that. Many more are making decent spending money or a living wage in a country with a low cost of living. It's not much different than other competitive arenas in that regard where the money flows from the casuals and bad players to those that have the edge.

There are your detailed answers to questions that should have been trivially easy for you to research. I assume these answers will do no good because people who ask the questions in the way you did never really care about the answers, but I gave them because I am always happy at times to give detailed informative information as that does showcase the difference between someone who has what it takes to succeed vs those who lack what it takes.

My final suggestion to you would be to quit all forms of gambling. You do not have what it takaes to succeed in this industry so unless you play for fun, and no riggies seem to have fun playing poker, it is best you leave this industry behind you.

All the best.

Thanks for the partial clarity. I feel we're getting somewhere with your definitions now.

Making decent money at poker according to you means earning something like minimum wage. Feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken but your post is full of references to minimum wage/living wage, which as you quote from wikipedia means:

Is that the poker dream in 2022? Spend 80 hours a week grinding microstakes to make a minimum wage? Wouldn't your clients be better off flipping burgers?

The point of action hands is to make the fish happy. Call it marketing if it allows you to understand it. And a lot cheaper in cost than most of their other forms so not dumb but bright despite your claim.

They are not my definitions, they are the common definitions used by society in general.

You are mistaken. You asked what a "normal" job would pay for a typical person that chooses to play poker. I defined the two most common demographics - student and essentially an unskilled worker without a formal education. I then explained how it serves the role of a student as they do their studies and how it can serve a role as a replacement wage for the other demographic. How "decent" the money is again will depend on where that person lives as cost of living can vary a huge amount around the world.


No, that is your little trolly agenda that I easily saw through and said so in my prior post. As I said multiple times - I knew you did not actually care about answers to your mundane questions. If you did you could spend 2 minutes to research them. What I said prior was the following:

I also said this


So, just because you want to believe that everyone is grinding microstakes for pennies an hour - that does not make it actually the case. Also, you asking what you think are clever, trappy questions like what is the cost of living and what is minimum wage as your silly attempt to construct a fake universe where all players are grinding micros to try to eke out minimum wage is just you with a transparent agenda. You are not nearly as clever as you may think.

My previous post gave a good overall assessment which you ignored and I knew you would ignore as you tried to finish your obvious little routine, but here it is again.

Obviously that is an oversimplification, but someone like you would never understand the complexities behind it. I will end this with repeating my advice to you that you really should quit all forms of poker and likely all forms of gambling. Your best play is not to play.

All the best.

Action hands would not keep the fish happy because they would go bust quicker. They want to be able to play without going bust on every other hand. If they can't win, they won't play.

prove that you are a bragger then, and show some evidence! of course we all know, you never will...

started playing on stars a few weeks ago, and something felt weird, too many river bad beats, too many cooler situations, too many runner runners, i played on PP, 888, pre BF Fulltilt, and few other sites before and never felt like being cheated, so i went into a really long google search for info about PS RNG and this is what i found...

mb this was posted before, not sure, just wanted to share.

https://www.academia.edu/34059393/On...udy_Pokerstars

Unfortunately you're drifting off into rambling mode again. It's incredibly difficult to get you to be specific.

What percentage of players, in your experience, are making a good enough living to have an average priced car, average priced house, etc in their own country? Let's just start by answering that basic question and see if we can progress from there.

NB - Obviously the costs will vary by country but that's irrelevant.

Tripe. What would be the point in action hands if it wasn't to keep the fish in the game.

Whatever happened to the goofball who was starting his own site with scamcoin? Dud, was that his name? He's super quiet these days.

Nobody's going to create an account on that site and read a long thesis.

For info, a video from 2014:

You are here for your silly agenda and nothing else. I have no idea who you are, but I assume you tried your hand in this industry and failed and are coming back years later because it frustrates you that others succeeded where you failed.

Of the entire player pool? Not many as a percentage, but then most players play casually. Of the players I have worked with - the ones that wanted to do it as purely a supplement to their main income or as a form of spending money while in school I would say well over 90% achieve that goal. Of the ones that want to have it as their primary source of income to support their needs - about 70% meet that goal with a good chunk of the other 30% meeting it for periods of times. Those in countries with higher costs of living will often times have a second source of income (as primary or secondary). Almost none of them grind the microstakes. The last time I backed a player at 25NL or below was maybe 8 years ago or more likely longer than that. Other stables focus on that market (signing them up for fringe sites for affiliate deals). Note, I am not counting the players who I worked with for under a month or two.

Keep in mind that I work with players that have a huge skill advantage on the field and work on their game on a regular basis. They are professional and approach this activity in that way. Obviously variance plays a role, especially in MTTs, but it becomes a fairly consistent math game eventually. Obviously there are a ton of other factors someone like you will be oblivious and clueless about like how the games change on the various rooms and networks and how one must always be aware of how money can move around in an efficient and low cost manner, but no real point discussing those with you since you do not actually care about any of this other than hoping your world where everyone is grinding for pennies to make you feel better about your past failure in this industry.

Only irrelevant to people like you who do not get it. A player that needs to make $800 a month has quite a few more options available to him than one that needs to make $3,000 a month. No real point discussing this with you since you do not get it.

There you go - very specific answers to your transparent hate this industry agenda, and while I am sure you will try to waste more of my time with more amateur beliefs and inquiries - this is as far as this chat goes. In the end you believe whatever you want about this industry and those who succeed in it. Your whiny bitterness shows in many of your posts including the weird one you did above this about scamcoin. No idea what that is about but it shows your personality being small, petty, whiny and one that obviously never figured out a way to do well in this industry and you are bitter others had what it took to succeed where you failed. Welcome to your life.

I had some extra time to have fun with a rando like you, but that changes after today, so this irrelevant conversation is over as far as I am concerned. Feel free to toss whatever final snark you need to feel better about yourself. Derps like you always need to do that, so I am happy to be kind and give that gift during this holiday season. Also, tune in on January 1 when I post the updated riggie list. It will likely be the last one as the riggie culture is totally dead now and not much to add to it any more at this point. I searched your user name in it and it was not there, so if you posted in this thread before this back and forth then you did not do it in a way that stood out.

All the best.